[67428HO]

Hi, just got the PHS on a 68 GTO I recently purchased. The zone is 35 and the dealer is 997. From what I found online it means Pontiac Motor Engineering. Does any one know what that means? Thanks

[Simple Man]

My 68 has the same thing. Mine was built 12/67, so it might have been a show car(Chicago auto show, Detroit auto show, etc) or it went to an exec.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Simple Man

My 68 has the same thing. Mine was built 12/67, so it might have been a show car(Chicago auto show, Detroit auto show, etc) or it went to an exec.

December of '67 is kind of late for a '68 show car to be built. 1968 regular production would have starting around the first or second week of August of 1967, and a 1968 model would not have been much good as a '69 model year property (unless it was converted to '69 appearance).

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 67428HO

Hi, just got the PHS on a 68 GTO I recently purchased. The zone is 35 and the dealer is 997. From what I found online it means Pontiac Motor Engineering. Does any one know what that means? Thanks

Yes - it means it went to PMD engineering. That is the same zone and code that many of the '63 Super Duty cars went through.

No way to know at this point what it was used for. Engineering vehicles were typically development cars used to try stuff out. There is a pool of vehicles to chose from, either built specifically in support of a project, or just to have on hand in case something comes up. Since it was sold to the public it means the modifications were minor enough to put it back to its original configuration.

When was the car built, and from which assembly plant?

K

[67428HO]

The invoice date is 07/18/68 . It was built in Pontiac Michigan. The title when I got it said its been titled in PA since 3 /69. It also said out of country? It's got a few options: A/C , hidden headlights, remote mirror, remote trunk release, rear windows defogger, P.s. power disc brakes and ralley gauges with clock. Lamp package. Thanks.

[johnta1]

I show the 35 997 as a Company car 'Dealer'.

I would think it would have another PHS sheet for when the car was sold to the new owner?
Or sometimes it will show 2 dealer numbers on it, first to 997 then to the final dealer.

Can you post a pic of the PHS?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 67428HO

The invoice date is 07/18/68 . It was built in Pontiac Michigan. The title when I got it said its been titled in PA since 3 /69. It also said out of country? It's got a few options: A/C , hidden headlights, remote mirror, remote trunk release, rear windows defogger, P.s. power disc brakes and ralley gauges with clock. Lamp package. Thanks.

Thank you.

That's a really late build as well for an engineering car.

Really no way to guess the usage. I have ordered trucks to my specifications, to be placed in the fleet until the mileage is accumulated, and then purchased them as a pre-owned company vehicle with the employee discount, mileage discount and past model year discount (as much as 38% off).

Maybe somebody did that with this one.

- OR - (perhaps more likely) - since it shows an "out of country" usage maybe it went to the engineering garage to be retrofit with export content of some kind. The engineering garage was often used to convert vehicles into something else, in support of small production runs, like police usages, taxi, coil spring retrofits, etc.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I show the 35 997 as a Company car 'Dealer'.

35-997 is PMD Engineering.

The retail store is 07-631, which would be equivalent to PMD's "in house" dealership.

K

[dataway]

My 68 was a week before that, first week of July. Arlington plant, BT body assembly plant.

Went to a 19-992 "Zone Lot", and from there to a dealer. But typically PHS doesn't have records for where it goes after the Zone Lot. Zone Lots are regional holding lots where the factory will send "spec" vehicles for quicker distribution to dealers. Obviously no "ordered" option cars on the lot ... they are just equipped with the most commonly ordered options and sent to the lot. From there a dealer will purchase them, either because a customer wanted it, or to flesh out his inventory.

Not sure if company destinations like Pontiac Motors Engineering was done the same way or not, but when PHS did my lookup probably 20 years ago they didn't have any info on where it went after the Zone Lot.

The Zone Lot will show up in the "dealer" box, and the lot would be somewhere within the geographic boundaries of the zone.

BTW ... zone 11 is Memphis .... I bought the car from the original owner in Memphis, 992 is listed as Pontiac Motor Division.

At least this is what the information I have found says ... when means it could be wrong

[johnta1]

The dealer number 997 I have is for 1972, possibly it changed over the years?

Do a search here for Harper and his 72 Lemans.
There were 3 PHS' (at least?)
It was for Toth at Pontiac. Went from 35 996 to 35 997 to 50 001
(Toth I guess)

35 996 - Pontiac Motor Div - SHO. CAR PCCL - shipped date: 12/03/1971
35 997 - Pontiac Motor Div - FACT CC CAR - shipped date: 12/14/1971
and to Toth (50 001) was shipped date: 8/31/1972 !



As said for the 68, it seems really late in model year for any engineering cars?

More likely a company car that ended up being sold (to someone else) toward the end of the model year?

[johnta1]

Have another PHS, 1970 GTO RA IV that went to 35 997 then to 35 991 then to final dealer 11 424.
(different zone)

On my previous post the sequence was from 991 to 997.

But the 991 and 997 were same text for description.

[north]

When was the car actually built (trim tag date), maybe it wasn't a late car, just a late invoice.

[Simple Man]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

December of '67 is kind of late for a '68 show car to be built. 1968 regular production would have starting around the first or second week of August of 1967, and a 1968 model would not have been much good as a '69 model year property (unless it was converted to '69 appearance).

K

I was thinking an auto show, because the car is loaded, PS, PDB,PW,P antenna, AM/FM reverb, P drivers seat, tilt wheel, cruise, AC, rally gauges, hideaways, hood tach.T400, and a few things I'm probably forgetting. A good way to show off some options.

[dataway]

Maybe it was an executive car, for some Pontiac big wig ... they were usually loaded.

If I got my last PHS around 25 years ago ... would it be worth it to get another now? Have they gotten access to more, or better info since then?

[dataway]

Also .... my billing history just has the letter "J" in the invoice number box ... what does that mean?

[north]

Was the 3 letter prefix there ? The normal situation for the invoice is a three letter prefix and then a six figure number.

[dataway]

Nope, just the letter "J" all by itself.

Here is a scan. ( I removed part of the VIN)

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by 67428HO

Hi, just got the PHS on a 68 GTO I recently purchased. The zone is 35 and the dealer is 997. From what I found online it means Pontiac Motor Engineering. Does any one know what that means? Thanks

What you found online was outdated folklore / myth.

35-997 is an "Umbrella Code" for PMD Motherland Defacto.
It does include Engineering ... it also includes Marketing , Advertising , Company Car , Show Car , etc....etc....

The fact is , only a Very Small Percentage of the 35-997 cars/documents we uncover were actually Engineering /Development cars.

On the 1969 and newer Invoices - it actually spells them out as ENG / DEV within the Invoice. (*)
Most of the 35-997 cars were either Company Car or Marketing.

But most folks prefer the mystique of Engineering and pick that term over the others.

Many moons ago in old Indian history, it was known that early Super Duty cars went through Engineering.
When documentations later became available through PMD and/or PHS , they showed 35-997.
So many tribes just used the 1+1 = 2 formula ... and proposed ALL Cars with 35-997 heritage were Engineering Cars.

They were missing a lot of other pertinent data from that equation.

We busted this myth years ago on this very forum with many documentations and prime examples.
Some legends are hard to kill.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by dataway

Also .... my billing history just has the letter "J" in the invoice number box ... what does that mean?

We deciphered your BHC years ago on here.
Do a search and refresh that thread.

Don't have access to all my data , and not keen enough to just lay it on the table from memory anymore.
But in that thread I am sure I gave you the definition of the J code for 1968
Maybe even the definition for all the sales codes we had at that time ?

[dataway]

Baron .... thanks bro

Your memory is better than mine. Found the thread, THIS TIME, printed it out and put it in the binder.

Wish I knew what big shot might have owned it. Would have liked to ask him about it.

I'm restoring it with the power brakes ... even though it did not have them when I bought the car from the second owner (second owner after it left PMD), since all indication is that it did originally have them.