[Bart]

I have a couple questions about my block. I have a 78 400 2-bolt block out of a catalina that will be bored .060 over with a torque plate. The block will be decked and the mains will be studded. I will also be filling to the freeze plugs with hard block for added strength. I am using #13 heads with a larger intake, like 2.15 or 2.19. The cam I am using is a CC XE 284 with Harland Sharp 1.65:1 Roller rockers.


#1.
Does anyone know if it's neccessary to have the chamfers in the tops of the cylinders? I know that the older blocks had them for unshrouding the valves and mine doesn't. Does it realy help with unshrouding the valves? It seems like with the bore that I will have and the valve sizes used there should still be plenty of room on the sides of the cylinders without shrouding. I could be wrong. I don't know how close the valves will be coming to the cylinder walls. I just need to decide whether to spend the money to have it done.
If you guys think I need it I will do it.

#2.
I am studding the mains and was told by a couple machine shops that I would need to have it align bored, which is quite expensive. Why would I need that if all the dimensions check out ok and nothing is broken or missing? I know what it's for and how it's done I just don't think it's neccessary unless a cap was damaged or had to be replaced and it seems like a waste of money. I was thinking about an align hone instead but I'm not sure if that would be neccessary either. I don't want to spend the money if it doesn't need to be done, and if it does need to be done I will definately do it.

I have to stick with what I have. I can't get an older block where I am because there just aren't any and it's not feasable for me to have one shipped here.

If I could get some advice from those experienced engine builders here that have come across this it would be greatly apreciated.

[Bart]

I have a couple questions about my block. I have a 78 400 2-bolt block out of a catalina that will be bored .060 over with a torque plate. The block will be decked and the mains will be studded. I will also be filling to the freeze plugs with hard block for added strength. I am using #13 heads with a larger intake, like 2.15 or 2.19. The cam I am using is a CC XE 284 with Harland Sharp 1.65:1 Roller rockers.


#1.
Does anyone know if it's neccessary to have the chamfers in the tops of the cylinders? I know that the older blocks had them for unshrouding the valves and mine doesn't. Does it realy help with unshrouding the valves? It seems like with the bore that I will have and the valve sizes used there should still be plenty of room on the sides of the cylinders without shrouding. I could be wrong. I don't know how close the valves will be coming to the cylinder walls. I just need to decide whether to spend the money to have it done.
If you guys think I need it I will do it.

#2.
I am studding the mains and was told by a couple machine shops that I would need to have it align bored, which is quite expensive. Why would I need that if all the dimensions check out ok and nothing is broken or missing? I know what it's for and how it's done I just don't think it's neccessary unless a cap was damaged or had to be replaced and it seems like a waste of money. I was thinking about an align hone instead but I'm not sure if that would be neccessary either. I don't want to spend the money if it doesn't need to be done, and if it does need to be done I will definately do it.

I have to stick with what I have. I can't get an older block where I am because there just aren't any and it's not feasable for me to have one shipped here.

If I could get some advice from those experienced engine builders here that have come across this it would be greatly apreciated.

[AG]

If you have ever measured your mains torqued with bolts and torqued with studs you would see why you need the mains honed. I too had questioned that until I measured them and found the dimension was different with studs. It definitely needs to be done if you want it right.

[Torment]

If you don't want to spend the cash just use the bolts and skip the studs.

[Torment]

Whose got a Pobtiac torque plate in Duluth?

[dammen8]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 0:
Whose got a Pobtiac torque plate in Duluth?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My guess is a place called Line Performance... I could be wrong but they have lots of stuff for BOP... But they are not in Duluth they are about 45 minutes to a 1 hour away.. this is where I do all my dyno'ing. Super good people to deal with. And as it stands I have the most powerful poncho that he has ever dyno'd [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] .. well talk to you later..

Chad Dammen

[Bart]

I just did a comparison with the studs and regular bolts and there is a slight difference. I didn't think that there would be. Thanks for the info.

I checked every place in Duluth and Superior looking for a shop with a torque plate for a 400. I found one in superior that had one for a 350, nothing else.

The closest place that I have found a shop with a torque plate for a 400 was the twin cities. There are several shops there that have them. I was planning on taking my stuff to some shop down there. I tried to get one to rent and nobody wanted to do it.


What city is the one in 45-60 minutes away?
How much experience do they have with pontiacs?
What's their address and phone number?
I'd rather go there than to the cities if they have some experience with pontiacs.
It would save me a lot of time and money.
Please let me know [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: Bart ]</p>

[Will]

They have a torque plate for a *Pontiac* 350, but not one for a 400? Huh? The torque plate I use is universal, it'll bolt onto any Pontiac block just as any Pontiac head will bolt onto any other Pontiac block. Wierd.

The chamfer in the top of the cylinder is not necessary, but it is beneficial.

Some tips for when you fill your block: Do it with the mains and heads torqued down. This way the block will be distorted the way it wants to be as the filler dries, thus holding it's shape better during the machining process.

As you found, the different clamping forces the studs exert on the caps cause the caps to distort, thus align honing is necessary. An align *hone* is all that should be necessary.

Good luck with your buildup!

[Bart]

Will,
Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to do that. People around this area just don't know much about pontiacs! It's hard to get good advice. Never filled a block before so it should be very interesting!

Do you think that not having the chamfers there would shroud the valves and hurt performance?
I should be a little over 500hp with this motor.
What would you do if you were using a valve bigger than 2.11 and a high lift cam? Is there a minimum clearance that I should maintain between the edge of the valve and the cylinder wall for good flow? I can take some measurements if neccessary and find out how close it is. I wouldn't want to hinder the performance!

The shop said that they can't use it for a 400 because of the bore size difference. They say that there is a seperate one for the 350 and the 400 because of the difference in bore sizes.

anyone else ever hear of needing different torque plates for different blocks? Maybe they don't know what their talking about.

[WARPed]

I am sure you already know this, but make sure you fill the block before the machine work is done. Will kind of says that but just want to make sure…BTW, is there a reason you are going .060 over? The horsepower difference from .030 to .060 is not enough to “use up” a block and require filling. IMO

[Bart]

Warped,
Thats exactly what I was planning on doing. Nobody told me that. It just made the most sense to me after I thought about it for a while.

To answer your question, there are a few reasons that I am going .060 over.

#1.
I wanted to use an SRP piston and they are only available in a 455 +.030 bore.

#2.
I wanted more CI and more stroke without going to the 455. I'm using a BBC 6.8" Eagle rod and having the crank offset ground to bring the piston to "0" deck which should give me a 3.9" stroke and 430CI. I should have more torque than a standard 400 and still be able to make good top end power.

#3.
I am going to use use a bigger intake valve and the larger bore will help to unshroud the valve.

#4.
I got a realy good deal on the rods and pistons and wanted to try something different for this rebuild and see how it works out. I'm curious to see how much power I can squeeze out of it.

I thought about dropping in a new crank with 3" mains and a 4.21" stroke, but I couldn't afford it. Maybe I'll save my money and try it for my next rebuild.
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

['ol Pinion head]

If I was personally going to go to the expense of studding & align honing the block, I would use a '71-73 400 block instead of the '78 block. Just not a fan of the later blocks with thinner main webbing & thinner cylinder walls for higher horse builds. Fine in a stocker but why put the $$$ in one for higher horse application? Also the '78 block choice cuts into versatility of later use...have no idea what chassis or motor mount brackets will be attached to this block but 99.9% of all '70-76 1/2 blocks had all 5 bosses drilled & tapped on the sides...will fit in early cars as well as all later chassis w/o adapters.


If you have to have valve relief chamfers, consider using a 69 400 block OR... '70 production block with (has all 5 more mnt holes). These chamfers will nearly disappear @ .060 though.

Heads...the casting #13 heads are 77-81 cc heads from the factory, not 72 or 75 cc as represented on many charts. CC quite a few virgin pairs of originals & you will come to the same verdict. These are a great "middle ground" choice, though, as 13's will work on a pump gas 400. What is your intended C/R?

Valve size, shrouding issue, intended use. For higher flow D-ports, one can get some killer port flow #'s (for d-ports) with 2.11's & 1.77's. I really don't understand the desire for 2.19's in such a small bore size, sorry I'm rambling... What is your goal for the engine/combo?

[Bart]

OPH,
Thanks for your good advice. Your not the first person that has told me to use an earlier block. They are very hard to find in this area and I did try to find one but couldn't. The one that I got didn't cost me a dime. It just isn't an option for me at this time to get an earlier one. Might be a good test to see how much it will take. Maybe it will hold up. I won't be mad if it goes as long as it doesn't happen right away. Then you guys can say "I told you so". I'm going to take a chance and stick with what I got and if it goes I'll get another earlier one. I know it's not the "ideal" block but hopefully it will work out ok for me for a little while.

I know I won't be making that much horse power right off the bat but will probably consider a bigger carb, and better intake a little later(850 Q-jet worked over and warrior or victor intake). I want to see how much I can get out of this cam before I use something else. I would be happy to see low 11's with this combo. Probably not right away, but maybe later. I think traction will be my biggest problem. My car weighs about 3800 with me in it. I won't be driving it much on the street. It will basicaly be just a "weekend" car. Driving to the strip and some cruising around town.

I haven't decided on a compression ratio yet because I still need to cc the heads to see where I'm at. I was told that they were never shaved. I know that my compression will be about 10.5:1 without any milling according to the cc's you say the heads are and and the stroke and bore I will have. If I need to use race gas I was thinking I might as well go higher and shave the heads some. I was thinking like 11.0:1 or 12.0:1 if I will have to use race gas anyway.

There are 2 reasons that I'm looking at a bigger intake.
#1
Almost every intake seat on both of the heads is pitted with rust. I have the choice of either replacing the seats(a lot of money), or using a bigger intake to save the seats. The guy that I talked to said that I could save all the seats with a bigger valve. Since a 2.15 and a 2.19 is the same price as a 2.11 this seems to be the most viable and cost effective solution to the problem.

#2
I know that I shouldn't have a big problem with shrouding based on the bore size and a bigger valve will always flow more than a smaller one. So why not reap the additional benifits of using a larger valve?

The heads will get a 5 angle valve job and be somewhat ported. I haven't decided exactly how much porting will be done yet. I don't want to spend too much money since I will probably use the E-head sometime in the future. I was thinking 250cfm intake and 220cfm exhaust would be good enough for right now. I will also be filling the exhaust crossovers with molten aluminum.

If anyone else would like to ad something please feel free to chime in. I will be happy to give more details on the engine and car if anyone is interested.

[Bud Lyons]

Bart, I have 1970 400 thats been cooked, magged,line honed and bored .030. I sell it for $100.00 plus shipping. Let me know if you want it.

[dammen8]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bart:
What city is the one in 45-60 minutes away?
How much experience do they have with pontiacs?
What's their address and phone number?
I'd rather go there than to the cities if they have some experience with pontiacs.
It would save me a lot of time and money.
Please let me know [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: Bart ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I called Lance today and he said that he does have a torque plate for a 400 and he will be glad to hone it for you. He's a good guy to get to know, he races a stocker and his 500hp buick out 60' my 700hp 455 (and his car is 300# heavier). I dont know how much he will cost but I can guarantee he will do a good job, lets face it the guys that are running the stockers have things figured out. And then you could dyno when you are done. The place is about 5 minutes out of Wright Minn. He also runs the gas station on the corner. The place is called Line Performance, his name is Lance, the phone number is 1-218-357-2210 (dyno) The number to his gas station is 1-218-644-0900. if you still have a hard time getting ahold of him let me know and I can e-mail you his home number. Like I said super nice people but you do have to have a sense of humor around them. Well I hope he can help, oh yea while I was on the phone with Lance I asked him if I was still the most powerful pontiac and he say yep
[img]tongue.gif[/img]

well talk to you later

Chad Dammen

[Tom Vaught]

Bud Lyons, If he doesn't take the block, I am
interested. Can you e-mail me with what you think
the shipping might cost to Michigan. Tom V.

[Bart]

Bud,
I sent you an email about the block.

[Torment]

Bart, 1st off yes the Lines brothers are very sharp guys. I haven't talked to Jason since the Keewatin race track was in operation. I haven't had any work done by them myself but I've a couple of friends with a Buick and Ford that were led quickly down the right path by them. My machine shop of choice is Total Engine Service (612)888-3841 just our side of the Cities. The guy to talk to is Ken. He does immaculate work and does have a torque plate. Most powerful Pontiac on their dyno eh Dammen? Only 45 minutes away, Maybe I'll have to let em' make a couple pulls ha! ha! ha! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[dammen8]

Hey torment I think you should make a couple pulls, you can learn alot and it would be very interesting to see who makes the most power... but of course if you do then I would have to get out the trusty old credit card, [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] .. you know Rodney Butler said he could replicate his TT 440 for only $28,000. But I think that it would probably break Lances dyno. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] .. well talk to you later.. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Chad Dammen

[Torment]

and my pocketbook!