Pontiac - Street No question too basic here!

          
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  #21  
Old 05-09-2012, 02:25 AM
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Which engine is this? IF it's the original 400, yes it's possible to lift he crank with some difficulty to install the BOP viton seal, the cap size of course is alot easier than the block side. BUT if your engine is now a 455 those anti-rotation holes(block side) will have to be filled to prevent leakage, which means removing the crank, because it's almost impossible to fill them with the crank in place. And as what already been said, tilt engine so that oil completely covers the crank's rear seal and let stand overnight, but you will usually see some leakage in 4/6 hrs if those holes are improperly sealed. Goodluck.

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Old 05-09-2012, 02:31 AM
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I should have mentioned that regardless of the installation, wait a full 24 hours after applying sealant before putting any oil in the engine. Once a product like Ultra Gray sets up, it's some very tough stuff; but it can be compromised if oil contacts it while curing. No proof, but I believe that many of the leaks people are experiencing are caused by insufficient setup time.

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  #23  
Old 05-09-2012, 07:55 AM
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Thanks everyone for the advice. Looking back, I see that I never once mentioned what engine I have. Sorry about that. By decoding the numbers, my block is a 400 that was produced on August 1, 1977 and intended for the 1978 model year. That's not quite the 1972 GTO block that it was represented to be by the former owner, but I guess I'm not surprised.

  #24  
Old 05-09-2012, 10:25 AM
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Everyone keep in mind that for the lip seal the "tip" test is not the final say in leakage. We have seen many engines drip on the tip test and not leak under use. This is because oil can migrate through the serrations in a static situation. The oil slinger and angle of the serrations fling oil away from the seal while running. In addition, the lip seal has smaller helical lips on the primary lip that actually "screw" the oil back into the engine while it is running. In the 2009 seal revision we made these less prominent to help the seal in a static situation, but bottom line is an engine can leak in tip test conditions and be leak free in real life conditions.

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  #25  
Old 05-09-2012, 10:44 AM
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how much more work would it be to test for leaks in real life conditions then risk tearing the motor down and messing something up there?

  #26  
Old 05-09-2012, 11:37 AM
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Well, I'm a bit confused. The rear main seal wasn't even on my radar before I began to re-install the engine and saw the leak. When I was driving the car, I never experienced any significant engine oil leakage that I was able to see. There was some engine oil in the inspection cover and on the starter, but I figured the starter oil to be from a valve cover. I had a major transmission leak, so it was hard to determine how much of the oil was actually engine oil. Now that I hear that it is possible to have a leak during the tip test, but not in use I am second guessing if I should swap out the seal or not.

  #27  
Old 05-09-2012, 11:45 AM
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So the tranny was attached to the engine when you were reinstalling it? You have a plug in the tranny where the driveshaft goes in?

  #28  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:44 PM
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Yes, the transmission was attached, but the oil leak was not coming from the transmission. I watched the oil run out of the rear main area, down the flex plate and onto the floor. Also, the transmission is now fresh and has no fluid in it yet.

  #29  
Old 05-11-2012, 08:56 AM
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Big difference between a drip and a stream. If you have a stream, then you know something is wrong. If it were me and this showed up, I would fix it before putting it inthe car. Unless you need some practice with pulling and installing engines.

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  #30  
Old 05-11-2012, 09:02 AM
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I agree. My seal and pan gasket should arrive today and I think I'll install it. The leak was just short of a steady stream when the motor was on the cherry picker. A good sized drop hit the floor every 5 seconds. I would hate to put the motor back in only to have a leak. The car was stripped to a bare tub this winter and everything has been cleaned, painted or replaced that wasn't like new. I would hate to see oil over the bottom of the car after all of that work.

  #31  
Old 05-11-2012, 12:20 PM
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I worked in a GM dealer for years and have installed 100s of rope rear main seals with the crank still in the engine. Get a Sneaky Pete rear main removal and installation tool to rempve and replace the rope seal.

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  #32  
Old 05-11-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002Z4CSS View Post
I worked in a GM dealer for years and have installed 100s of rope rear main seals with the crank still in the engine. Get a Sneaky Pete rear main removal and installation tool to rempve and replace the rope seal.

X2. With the old rope type seal (and the old way)they were changed while laying on our back underneath the car. Remove rear main Loosen two mains fwd of rear main pull the top seal out and pull the new one in ,dont need much clearance. Just the way we did it.

  #33  
Old 05-11-2012, 02:03 PM
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What was the length of time the new seal lasted? The procedure was definitely cost effective for dealerships (and mechanics that were paid flat rate), but the repair only needed to last the remainder of the warranty period. The Pontiac shop manual recommends using a trapezoid shaped tool to tap the seal in another half inch and insert a like amount of rope seal on each side of the seal cavity in the block. I guess it worked, but sure seems temporary.

I have a good friend that was a Pontiac mechanic for 43 years. He is amazing to watch when he tears into an engine repair. He might be retired, but definitely didn't loose the speed necessary to make a living in the flat rate world. My job when working with him was basically to not get in his way. He would complete a job that requires two people by himself much faster than I and a friend could accomplish it - and there were never any problems. Torque wrench? Don't have time for that nonsense. Fact is, most of his assembly was done with an impact including bearing caps. I checked his work with a calibrated torque wrench (after he left so he wouldn't know), and he was always within five to six pounds of recommended torque. I've seen many torque wrenches that were further out than that.

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  #34  
Old 05-11-2012, 04:47 PM
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I am far from pro - but I like working on poncho motors and I like getting a good result.

I always do the tilt test and I bought a chinese engine test stand to run the motor out of the car. If you try to do it fast or take shortcuts, you usually pay. I had a 455 from a TA that kept leaking (I pulled it to fix the rear main leak in the first place). I finally had to use the best graphite rope seal to get it to work because I couldn't get Wade's seal to work in that motor. I've used both seal's - and prefer Wade's seal. In this case I had to use the graphite and it is still very dry.

I've not been able to replace any rear seal with just lifting the crank "a little".

  #35  
Old 05-11-2012, 10:17 PM
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i have installed a bunch of bop seals in 400 engine in the car and had no problems yet

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  #36  
Old 05-11-2012, 10:41 PM
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[QUOTE=lust4speed;4629525]What was the length of time the new seal lasted? The procedure was definitely cost effective for dealerships (and mechanics that were paid flat rate), but the repair only needed to last the remainder of the warranty period. The Pontiac shop manual recommends using a trapezoid shaped tool to tap the seal in another half inch and insert a like amount of rope seal on each side of the seal cavity in the block. I guess it worked, but sure seems temporary.]


Havent had much problem lately,last one I installed laying under the car was in 1998.It sits in the driveway to this day and no leak.All Pontiac rear seals are temp.The one in his engine was no doubt installed on the bench.Couldnt do much worse?

  #37  
Old 05-12-2012, 06:05 AM
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Actually Lou ,the 400's 3" mains are alot more forgiving when installing the rear main seal vs the 455's 3.25's, when the crank remains in the block. I experimented with both,now I'm hoping Wade is right. No leak at half tilt and maybe a little less than 1/2 tsp when standing the 455 on it's crank overnight.

  #38  
Old 05-12-2012, 09:18 PM
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Sorry to hear this Craig...really sucks.
But better now then later.

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  #39  
Old 05-22-2012, 08:34 AM
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I finally found time to go out and pull the oil pan and rear main cap on the engine this morning before work and the found that the rope seal had spun. I was entertaining the notion to only replace the pan gasket, but I figured that if I was this far into it, I would be foolish not to pull the main cap. I hope to get everything re-assembled and drop the engine back in this weekend.

  #40  
Old 05-22-2012, 11:08 AM
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Glad to hear you found the culprit. This thread is a good read. I found an excellent solution for my motor. Unfortunately my solution is a piece of carboard under the car to catch all her juices.

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