[issach428]

Well i set out to copy the geeto gto' s performance by building pretty much the same motor but i am getting no where near the performance.* And i am trying to figure out where the power is or what is lacking in my combo.* Here's mine and the geeto gto's combo's.* Any thoughts on what might be wrong?

Mine/ geeto gto:
462ci/462ci?
10.3;comp/9.7:1 comp
316cfm eheads/300cfm eheads
victor intake/victor intake
850 holley/ 960 holley
both have spacers
same identical cams .440 lobe .700 lift 272 @.050
3800# car/4000# car
both th400s
3500 stall/ 4500 stall
3.73 gears/ 4.11 gears
both 30 inch tall tire




Both are running the identical same cams My fuel system is more than adequate, no traction problems either.my combo has run only 11.60's at 118 ,*** Geeto has run 10.50's at 125. I am having my converter re-stalled to around 4300.* Could my lower stall and rear gears be the reason i am not running what the geeto is? Where is the mph? I am just a little frustrated becuase i have spent alot of money and its not performing. Any ideas?

[71 Ventura II]

Originally Posted by issach428

Well i set out to copy the geeto gto' s performance by building pretty much the same motor but i am getting no where near the performance.* And i am trying to figure out where the power is or what is lacking in my combo.* Here's mine and the geeto gto's combo's.* Any thoughts on what might be wrong?

Mine/ geeto gto:
462ci/462ci?
10.3;comp/9.7:1 comp
316cfm eheads/300cfm eheads
victor intake/victor intake
850 holley/ 960 holley
both have spacers
same identical cams .440 lobe .700 lift 272 @.050
3800# car/4000# car
both th400s
3500 stall/ 4500 stall
3.73 gears/ 4.11 gears
both 30 inch tall tire




Both are running the identical same cams My fuel system is more than adequate, no traction problems either.my combo has run only 11.60's at 118 ,*** Geeto has run 10.50's at 125. I am having my converter re-stalled to around 4300.* Could my lower stall and rear gears be the reason i am not running what the geeto is? Where is the mph? I am just a little frustrated becuase i have spent alot of money and its not performing. Any ideas?

Your combo is not the same; your carb, converter, overall installed tune up, and gear are different. The converter alone could be responsible for .4+ all by itself. The carbs and the fuel curve from them can account for .3+ as well. Just two of the factors make an 11.60 a 10 second run.

This is the issue people bring up all the time, people try and copy someone's combo but they end up building a "Similar" combo wondering why it doesn't run the same. I'm not trying to bust you on this just point out that "Same" means every aspect must be duplicated right down to the brand of parts used. Similar is not the same.

I'm assuming you know the owner of the other vehicle and trust all the "advertised" parts are the same they are using. No harm intended, but I've wasted thousands trying to follow someone's build to end up disappointed. JD

[Scott Stoneburg]

start with the cam, how is it installed in your combo vs. geeto? then carb, have you optimized the jetting? i don't mean by reading the plugs or looking to see if it smokes black, but jet it for the best MPH. this usually takes a few trips to the track. then check timing, again try different settings at the track to see what your combo likes. go through each "tuning" peice to optimize. are both cars using exhaust? who ported your heads vs geeto's? there is more to proper head porting then just flow#'s. what is the runner volume compared between the two heads? larger volume will slow down velocity. and yes the gear and or converter is affecting the outcome.
just a few questions to look into.

[issach428]

I have asked dave anderson all about his car through instant messages. I am roughly 200lbs race weight lighter.. Once i get the right converter in and get the carb tunned a little better i dont see at all why i wouldnt run close to that number. My heads where cnc ported then hand blended by Kre. I do know the Jets are a little lean. My motor regardless of other parts has always ran the best numbers at 38 degrees with the eheads. I am running 2 inch headers through 3 inch x welded ultra flos. I dont know who ported the Daves heads but he didnt sound like they spent much time on them.

[440GP69]

isn't the Geeto 9.8:1 compression? is your engine honed with torque plate? port matched exact, fully blue printed? you have the combo to be in the tens with more tuning just won't happen overnight it takes a while before you as a driver and the car are tuned right, your engine and combo is close but not the same the GeeTO is a race car on pump gas with 4500stall and 4.10 gears, right there if both engines were identical the gears and stall still make the GeeTO a faster car, i say give it some time before changing parts and just drive/tune it untill the car is maxed for that combo and then switch parts After you have a good baseline to start from JMO but parts chasing will not make you faster if anything it will be expensive and frustrating IMO unless there is an obvious problem.JM2

[69Goat1]

Issach - another thing is the Geeto didn't run anywhere near a 10.50 in Tulsa this year and it the air is worse now so what someone ran at sea level in California is not what you can expect here...

I am pretty sure Atco NJ is the same way - guys run much faster there than they can other places - I would love to haul my car over there

[issach428]

the intake is port matched, block is zero decked, honed with torque plate. other than a higher stall the geeto is no more a race car than mine.

[Cliff R]

Have you dyno'd the engine? This would at least let you know if the engine is making enough power to acheive the desired results.

At 3760 lbs our Ventura has went 11.52 @ just under 118mph. On the dyno, the engine made 514hp and just under 600ft lbs torque.

Your combination should make quite a bit more power, and be capable of pushing 3800lbs into the 10's. There are a lot of little things that could keep this from happening, converter slippage, cam placement, etc.

It still really helps to know how much power the engine is producing before it goes into the car. Then you can work on the drivetrain and not the engine to effectively use the power.

I would like to see a higher static compression ratio for a cam that big. I can tell you from experieince that cam placement must be spot on with relatively "low" SCR's and cams with lots of duration/overlap. You mentioned that you are using the same cam, did you duplicate the specs or get the exact same grind number, and put it in at the same ICL?

Converter stall speed becomes even more important with really big cams, as the engine will somewhat lacking in power at lower rpm's. As mentioned above, you could be leaving nearly a half second on the table with the converter alone. The MPH being so low does indicate the horsepower is off the mark some, or the converter has a lot of slippage above the stall speed......Cliff

[Goat-Racer]

Issach, what kind of 60' times do you run? It sounds like the car is off at both ends, but you had'nt mentioned short times yet.

[DiamondJim]

Weights of both cars? Exhaust? Fuel supply? He is running more carb, 5% more gear, 25% more stall. There may be more of a difference than you realize. If both cars weigh the same and he runs 7 more mph, he is making more hp, bottom line. -Jim

[Tom Vaught]

You are comparing a Professional Street Racers car and engine to your deal. Like comparing Mohammed Ali in his prime to Rocky. Ain't going to happen in real life.

There are a thousand things that they are not telling you that make the difference.

The Butlers may have worked on the original engine in the car but I guarantee it has been massaged a great deal beyond those days. Jim Wangers gives up nothing to his competition. Dave Anderson is a great guy but he is NOT the engine builder or tuner.

Tom V.

[TIN TIGR]

great answer tom, and a good lesson to learn

when i was building roadrace sbc for a nationally prominent builder, i did more things to the engine than anyone in the shop..i massaged small things the other guys said didnt matter..we all got the same parts to build with, but mine always ran about 8-10 hp stronger on the dyno.."thats a waste of time" became "can ya show me what ya did with those rings again"..

everything counts..and the more horsepower ya make, the bigger the differences get..

and the key to racing any auto car is the converter..it will make or break your whole deal..the car has to ride the torque/hp peaks, with good multiplication while providing minimum slippage..i have seen cars pick up all the et and speed you seem to be down with a converter change..or you may have hurt the converter..we were breaking one every pass in the nitrous car..

guys will spend 4k on cylinders heads, but balk at 1500 bucks for a converter that makes them work correct..put the money where it does the most work for you..

[Cliff R]

"There are a thousand things that they are not telling you that make the difference."

Well put Tom, I was thinking it but just didn't come right out and say it.

I've ran into a few racers who just tell you enough about there deadly effective combination to get you into trouble.

I've also had a few tell me their engines are on pump gas and in the 9 to 1 range, then moments later you hear them "buck" the starter like a 13 to 1 motor and ROAR to life exhaling that ever so familiar smell of burnt race gas. I'm not saying this about Dave's stuff, but just as a general statement about folks giving up the "goods" on their very effective combinations.

One should also keep in mind that the engine is only part of a big plan, there is a LOT of ET and MPH waiting to be unleashed in the rest of the combination........FWIW.....Cliff

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"There are a thousand things that they are not telling you that make the difference."

Well put Tom, I was thinking it but just didn't come right out and say it.

....FWIW.....Cliff

What, Tom shy? LOL.

Ask Dave what his 60 ft'ers are. And compare. A lot has to do with getting it started down the track. Ya can't make up what ya don't have to begin with. A lot of difference in your converter and gear ratio that can make a difference. That and carb size.

[Ron]

What headers do you have?? Size of exhaust system and what mufflers. Crossover pipe?....if so is it a H or X. Vacuum pump?

[mjm421]

I would try a 28" tire with that 3.73. Mike

[issach428]

my 60ft is in the high 1.7's. motor has never been dynoed. exhaust is 2 inch headers 3.5 collector reduced to 3 inch pipes-3inch x pipe through dynomax welded ultra flos. I was more concerned with the mph since the converter didnt have the proper stall. The cams are identical, i installed it 2 degrees advanced at 104. I am sending off my stall to have it near 4300rpm. I may switch back to a 28 inch tall slick once my mt drag radials done.

[Cliff R]

Issach, just curious as to what octane fuel you are using for the drag strip runs. The DCR is pretty "low" with that combo, too much octane could really take a lot of power out of the engine.

I would put a dyno session on my "wish list", if the car doesn't come around and start running up near 125mph after the changes.

My old engine was 10.48 to 1 SCR, and ran best of 89-90 octane. Adding race gas or even 93 octane would slow it up a tenth. Our new engine is 10.99 to 1, we only have 6 passes on it, on 89 octane. I don't know yet if it's going to like more octane or not?......Cliff

[Goat-Racer]

Issach, what converter are you using (brand, size)? It may be killing you at both ends of the track. Your 60's are off by about three tenths from where they are going to need to be.

I also agree that the 28" tire would be a better match with your gear, for your goal.

[Ron]

Your headers are not the same as the GeeTo Tiger. The Tiger has Doug's Headers which are 1 7/8.

It appears the one of the few items that are the same between the engines is the cubic inches.