[lintmann]

I'm still pretty green here so I thought I better ask. When paint is judged from a local event to the national event what are the judges looking for in regards to surface finish?

I've been a member of the NCRS for quite a while now and their requirement is that it had to APPEAR as it did on the show room floor. That means lacquer type orange peel and a certain amount of imperfections such as dust, fisheyes, etc are acceptable. A perfectly wet sanded and polished finsh will earn you a heafty deduct on paint!

So my question is, are the Pontiac judges looking for this factory type finish or is a finish that has all the orange peel sanded out and then polished just, or more desired? The reason I ask is because the NCRS way is very hard to achive compared to just wet sanding and polishing and I rather not have the desire to do it the factory way.

[Unclesamscandy]

Who the heck uses lacquer anymore?

[lintmann]

It's not uncommon to use it for authentic restorations especially if the painter doesn't know how to make today's paints look like yesterday's lacquer.

[Unclesamscandy]

Originally Posted by lintmann

It's not uncommon to use it for authentic restorations especially if the painter doesn't know how to make today's paints look like yesterday's lacquer.

Litman, no offense- I am not trying to be a wiseguy. But really, when you say "not uncommon" are you talking about one tenth of one percent? I just can't see any around here. I am not being wise. But are there any members here who use the old ways? I can see maybe the top 5 or 6 cars with the big money and that, but it seems very passe.

[lintmann]

No offense taken. Like I mentioned I've been in the NCRS for a while now and to be honest it is quite common there to use lacquer for an authentic restoration. I've also heard of other cars being restored of a higher caliber than corvettes that used lacquer. I however don't think it's common in the general muscle car crowd for a number of reasons, one being that it tends to crack easier on steel cars than aluminum or fiberglass cars.

Whether to use lacquer or not on your own vehical is a personal choice and moot point for this thread anyways because that's not at all what I'm asking about. My car is already painted in single stage urethane.

What I'm asking is, are the Pontiac judges looking for the factory type "lacquer look" finish OR is a finish that has all the orange peel sanded out and then just polished more desired and equally accepted?

[Wakepowell]

Currently the GTOAA and POCI Concourse Judging does not deduct for use of modern paints or better than factory finish. The NCRS Judging is much more critical when it comes to paint.

[hobi]

Originally Posted by Unclesamscandy

Who the heck uses lacquer anymore?

I have been using Lacquer since 1974 I shot my Triple Black 1969 The Judge Convertible in Lacquer in 2007 I shot my Orbit Orange The Judge Convertible in Lacquer in 2005 I did a friends 1970 The Judge in Lacquer Palomino Copper a few months ago did some blow ins on a 1969 The Judge Convertible Matador Red Lacquer three weeks ago. I can still buy it here in Arizona no problem I have a system that has not really changed in 20 years but I did my first Base Clear job a Crystal Turquois 1969 The Judge Convertible that I have owned since 1978 I like the product but I am more familliar and comfortable with Lacquer but I will agree not very many want or know how to use it.

All the above mentioned The Judge Convertibles are clones with the exception of the Matador Red Convertible that is a customers car.

[Unclesamscandy]

my matador red 69 vert was done in lacquer in 87. The paint lasted 5 years or so and then there was some checking and of course it chipped when you stared too hard. For a few years I consistently won "best paint" in every show I went to. When I sold the car my friend bought it and his kid sister waxed it in the sun one day causing the entire hood to crackle like dried desert gulch.

I bought the car back some years later after he had a poor enamel repaint done to it. One day I will strip it and return to original code Exp/ Brown in a basecoat/clearcoat. (I will go back to the original 14 inch wheels and fixed headlights too)

I think lacquer is not for sale here in NY but someone could correct me if I am wrong. I suspect that less than one percent of paint jobs these days are lacquer.

pics are then and now

[lintmann]

Originally Posted by Wakepowell

Currently the GTOAA and POCI Concourse Judging does not deduct for use of modern paints or better than factory finish. The NCRS Judging is much more critical when it comes to paint.

Thanks Wakepowell, that answers my question. Do you know if they have judging sheets or guides or should I just contact them?

unclescamscandy: "I suspect that less than one percent of paint jobs these days are lacquer"

I'd think that far less than that are lacquer because no production body shop would typically use it so it's pretty much reserved for only the hard core purists.

[notime]

I have used laquer many times and it looks better than base clear when sanded and buffed. I have also put urethane clear over laquer and it has held up on my dads 72 cheyenne super and a 71 GS i did for a friend ,for over 20 years but i dont recommend doing that. The judges will not deduct points for laquer but they may deduct for imperfections but shouldnt deduct for minor orange peel, however you will never get best of show with it, that seems to be reserved for the over the top restorations.

[Jerry H.]

Unless it has changed recently the GTOAA rule book reads like this (and this is from memory): The car should be restored as if the factory had unlimited time to build the car. As far as body and paint that is to mean gaps lined up perfectly and paint level (no orange peel) and shiny. As was posted above, no points are deducted for using paints other than lacquer.

FWIW, the lacquer that is available doesn't have the lead in it that it did in the 80's and before. The lead in the paint supposedly helped it hold up longer. I painted a 65 GTO in Montero Red lacquer in 85. It was a show winner every time out, including it's concours class at the GTOAA in 1987. However it took a lot of care. The only time it every sat in the sun or got wet was at a car show. (I never washed it) I also never put any wax on it. Only polish; about 4-6 times a year. But it still looked fantastic in 96 when I sold it. I probably wouldn't think of using any lacquer today unless I could find some of the older paint w/ lead.

[hobi]

Originally Posted by notime

I have used laquer many times and it looks better than base clear when sanded and buffed. I have also put urethane clear over laquer and it has held up on my dads 72 cheyenne super and a 71 GS i did for a friend ,for over 20 years but i dont recommend doing that. The judges will not deduct points for laquer but they may deduct for imperfections but shouldnt deduct for minor orange peel, however you will never get best of show with it, that seems to be reserved for the over the top restorations.

Amen I Love Lacquer but have seen some shops out here make the clear on top of the base a mile deep

[weranc55]

I'm thinking of doing my car in lacquer because I like the look of it. I am concerned about it lasting because of the lack of lead in it.

[gtojon]

How many years do you plan owning the car Weranc55? I bet the paint will outlast you!

[hobi]

Originally Posted by weranc55

I'm thinking of doing my car in lacquer because I like the look of it. I am concerned about it lasting because of the lack of lead in it.

If you are concerened in the least paint the car twice with Lacquer the first time strait color and thin about 150 percent wait a week sand with 600 wet and paint again only this time mix Lacquer Color with Lacquer Clear 50 percent Color 50 percent Clear and thin 150 percent sand and polish and if done rite it will be a mile deep good luck

[paint guy]

Originally Posted by weranc55

I'm thinking of doing my car in lacquer because I like the look of it. I am concerned about it lasting because of the lack of lead in it.

Lacquer does not have anywhere the durability of BC/CC or even single-stage but not because there is no lead in it. Many lacquer colors used in the sixties had NO lead and still cracked. Some colors that had lead (reds and oranges, for example) had lots of lead due to the color, but this contributed absolutely nothing to the common failure mode of lacquer, which is the film getting brittle and short, and eventually cracking from plasticizer migration.

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by Jerry H.

Unless it has changed recently the GTOAA rule book reads like this (and this is from memory): The car should be restored as if the factory had unlimited time to build the car. As far as body and paint that is to mean gaps lined up perfectly and paint level (no orange peel) and shiny. As was posted above, no points are deducted for using paints other than lacquer.

FWIW, the lacquer that is available doesn't have the lead in it that it did in the 80's and before. The lead in the paint supposedly helped it hold up longer. I painted a 65 GTO in Montero Red lacquer in 85. It was a show winner every time out, including it's concours class at the GTOAA in 1987. However it took a lot of care. The only time it every sat in the sun or got wet was at a car show. (I never washed it) I also never put any wax on it. Only polish; about 4-6 times a year. But it still looked fantastic in 96 when I sold it. I probably wouldn't think of using any lacquer today unless I could find some of the older paint w/ lead.

Same year we took First in Concourse Restored with an enamel paint job...cost me @ $300. Often times it has more to do with the painter than the paint. Just sayin'. Ron

[weranc55]

Originally Posted by gtojon

How many years do you plan owning the car Weranc55? I bet the paint will outlast you!

I have no idea how long I will own it. Probable until someone offers me something I cant refuse. So that may be a while.

Originally Posted by paint guy

Lacquer does not have anywhere the durability of BC/CC or even single-stage but not because there is no lead in it. Many lacquer colors used in the sixties had NO lead and still cracked. Some colors that had lead (reds and oranges, for example) had lots of lead due to the color, but this contributed absolutely nothing to the common failure mode of lacquer, which is the film getting brittle and short, and eventually cracking from plasticizer migration.

Thanks for the info.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by paint guy

Lacquer does not have anywhere the durability of BC/CC or even single-stage but not because there is no lead in it. Many lacquer colors used in the sixties had NO lead and still cracked. Some colors that had lead (reds and oranges, for example) had lots of lead due to the color, but this contributed absolutely nothing to the common failure mode of lacquer, which is the film getting brittle and short, and eventually cracking from plasticizer migration.

Can anything be done to slow this process (on an original paint car)?

K

[Unclesamscandy]

Based on what I have heard (my wife is a chemist and grew up in Pittsburgh incidentally where she attended Carnegie-Mellon to get her PhD) from not only practicioners and academics like my wife- I second Paint guy. The processes and science behind the newer product is superior.

As to the comment about enamel, I recall Centauri and Emron being the rage once, and the very best painters did (with time and skill) easily make them look as good as anything with prep, application and sanding and buffing, all done artfully. But the new generation of finishes are created scientifically for resilience. All the research money has gone into these finished so if you ever wondered why they cost so damn much...