[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by TAKerry

Age old argument that can never be won.

100% correct. Some say its the Hemi Mopars of the 50's, some say its the Supercharged cars of the 30's, while others say it was the high horse midsized cars of the 60's. People need to face fact that this clearly falls under that saying, "what came first the chicken or the egg".

[OG68]

IMHO there are only a few revolutionary engines that had the greatest impact to the North American auto market at the time of production and into the future.

1932 - The grand-daddy of them all, Ford Flathead V-8
1952 - Chrysler Hemi
1955 - Chevrolet Small Block
1965 - Chevrolet Big Block

To be sure, theres more powerful and better engines built since then but who can argue about the longevity and popularity of these V-8s. The cars that they came in could be considered Muscle Cars during their day.

[TAKerry]

Dad was friends with a guy that had a world class collection of Packards. One of the things he had was a running motor display. I tried hand cranking it over when I was a young man and couldn't get the thing to budge.

[Chief of the 60's]

Trying to get to a definitive answer is like finding out how many licks in a Tootsie Pop to get to the center. "The world may never know"

[ramairthreegto]

It was not the first powerful, fast, performance, etc car.

It was the first to take a midsized car, give it the engine from a full sized powerful car,
And market it specifically as designed as a performance niche.

[carbking]

Originally Posted by TAKerry

Dad was friends with a guy that had a world class collection of Packards. One of the things he had was a running motor display. I tried hand cranking it over when I was a young man and couldn't get the thing to budge.

Until Mr. Kettering invented the electric self-starter in 1911, electric cars had a much larger share of the market.

I still have a hand-crank tractor that I park on the side of a hill when I want to run it!

[carbking]

Originally Posted by ramairthreegto

It was not the first powerful, fast, performance, etc car.

It was the first to take a midsized car, give it the engine from a full sized powerful car,
And market it specifically as designed as a performance niche.

Your definition fits the 1930 Packard 734 exactly. In fact, not only was the engine the one from the more powerful full sized car, the engine was modified for even more power!

The 734 was built on the 733 chassis (midsize) that came with a 319 CID engine, given the engine (385 CID) from the 745 (full size) and the 385 CID engine was modified for additional performance, and the car was marketed for performance.

And performance IS relative to the age. Men raced horses long before the automobile was even thought about. In the early 1930's, the Packard 734 and the Duesenberg J were pretty much kings of the road!

Again, not trying to be argumentative, simply suggesting to broaden ones interests.

And no, I am not claiming the Packard to be first, but it was 34 years before the GTO.

Jon

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Stuart

People argue what was the first muscle car all the way back to the 1938 Buick Century.

1936 Century. It was the first year of the big Roadmaster engine in the light Special body. A very hot car for it's time. By 1941, it had dual carbs. I'd say it goes back even earlier than that....the 1912 Mercer Raceabout or the same era Stutz Bearcat. Just a stripped down chassis (the smallest offered) with the biggest engine installed. Studebaker had some hot stuff, but hardly pioneered it. Hell, what about the factory supercharged Graham sedan of 1938-40? Lots of cars could be considered the first 'musclecar'. GTO did it on a bigger scale and with better marketing.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

So, if it had to be a smaller car, such as an A or F-body, then I suppose maybe one of the '64 GM A-bodies would have been the 1st car made that most would call a "muscle car".

Only Pontiac put the full size car engine (389) in the A body in 1964.

The largest Chevy option was the 327.

Olds had the 330 and Buick the 300.

[Diego]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Those Stude's are super-cool, but it's all about the math. Each of the OEM's suddenly needed their own "GTO" circa '65 to compete with the Goat's burgeoning sales - and so began the "era". Might've been fun if they all went supercharged, too, though!

Except Studebaker introduced the R2 engine for the 1963 model year and discontinued it in December 1963, after a handful of 1964s had been built. Soon, they'd move manufacturing to Canada.

I think there were two American brands at that time that had made a clear investment in performance: Pontiac and Studebaker. Who knows what would have happened if Studebaker was able to survive?

I don't consider 1936 Centurys, 1949 Oldsmobiles, 1952 Chryslers, or even the C-300 "muscle cars." And Mopar people like to quote the 1962 Max Wedge as having similar packaging to the GTO.....but the GTO took it from the racetrack to the street. The Olds 4-4-2 or Buick Gran Sport was not a response to any Mopar.

[Simple Man]

Even though it was smaller, I believe the Larks were considered full size, at least to Studebaker.
There were some Super Larks and Hawks built, but it was less than a handful, IIRC. The Avanti was supposed to save Studebaker, but we all know where that went.....

[Diego]

The Larks were compacts. They may have been stretched a bit after their 1959(?) debut.

[ramairthreegto]

Originally Posted by carbking

Your definition fits the 1930 Packard 734 exactly. In fact, not only was the engine the one from the more powerful full sized car, the engine was modified for even more power!

The 734 was built on the 733 chassis (midsize) that came with a 319 CID engine, given the engine (385 CID) from the 745 (full size) and the 385 CID engine was modified for additional performance, and the car was marketed for performance.

And performance IS relative to the age. Men raced horses long before the automobile was even thought about. In the early 1930's, the Packard 734 and the Duesenberg J were pretty much kings of the road!

Again, not trying to be argumentative, simply suggesting to broaden ones interests.

And no, I am not claiming the Packard to be first, but it was 34 years before the GTO.

Jon

Yes, but they lacked a market where 90% of Amercian households owned a car, let alone a huge population of boomer teens and young adults to snatch them up.

It was a luxury performance car priced at about five times the average American annual income at the time.

I clearly recognize the existence of previous performance cars.

The concept of taking the big engine from full sized cars, into a low priced mid sized car, and marketing it as an affordable performance car to the hugest youth market ever, was what was novel. Concurrent with the performance pony car concept. These guys were geniuses.

There were watches used for diving for decades, just like there were cars made for performance for decades. then blancpain really nailed the
Concept with the fifty fathoms in the early 50s. But it was little known and used outside of military and professional divers. Think of the fifty fathoms as all those hot cars before the GTO. Then, Rolex brought out the Submariner with serious marketing and killed it. It was not a luxury watch then. Even into the early 1970s the cost difference between a Submariner and Seiko diver was not that big. They brought dive watches to the masses the way the MUstang and GTO brought hot cars to the masses.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

Studebaker used the words Gran Turismo before Pontiac

Funny though "Omologato" has Zero to do with the Pontiac GTO
While Omolgato is a Sanctioned , certified as conforming to the specifications, as fuel capacity and engine displacement, for a class of standard automobiles (Gran Turismo) qualified to engage in various types of competitions. and the Pontiac was never Sanctioned for ANYTHING but Sales and FUN.
Long live the Grand Tempest OPTION . Which is really what it is , and was ..
Let the fun begin !

[Formulabruce]

Now, about the Hudson Hornet! a REAL "stock" car.. >> Its light weight and low center of gravity meant that the Hornet could out-handle and out-accelerate the competition. The Hornet won 80 races between 1951-1955, and three championships between 1951-1953.
6 in a ROW and away we go !!

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by OG68

IMHO there are only a few revolutionary engines that had the greatest impact to the North American auto market at the time of production and into the future.

1932 - The grand-daddy of them all, Ford Flathead V-8
1952 - Chrysler Hemi
1955 - Chevrolet Small Block
1965 - Chevrolet Big Block

To be sure, theres more powerful and better engines built since then but who can argue about the longevity and popularity of these V-8s. The cars that they came in could be considered Muscle Cars during their day.

Wasn't what was revolutionary about the '55 Chevy small block taken from the Pontiac designed Strato-Streak?

The main innovation of the Pontiac engine was Reverse flow cooling and the stamped rocker-arm system, which had been devised by Pontiac engineer Clayton Leach in 1948. At the request of Ed Cole, general manager of Chevrolet, the layout was also used by the Chevrolet V8 released in 1955, an exception to the customary GM policy of allowing a division one year of exclusive use of an internally developed advance.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Only Pontiac put the full size car engine (389) in the A body in 1964.

The largest Chevy option was the 327.

Olds had the 330 and Buick the 300.

Wasn't the 327 a full size car engine ?

In 1964, wouldn't a 300hp 327 powered 4-speed Chevelle have been considered a Musclecar ?

And I always considered the '60's 442 as a Musclecar.

So, I suppose it all boils down to EXACTLY what each person thinks qualifies a car to have Musclecar status.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Wasn't the 327 a full size car engine ?

In 1964, wouldn't a 300hp 327 powered 4-speed Chevelle have been considered a Musclecar ?

And I always considered the '60's 442 as a Musclecar.

So, I suppose it all boils down to EXACTLY what each person thinks qualifies a car to have Musclecar status.

In 1964 - you could get an Impala/Biscayne/BelAire with a 230 ci 6, a 283, a 327, a 348, a 396 or a 427. Basically all engines except the anemic 194 ci 6 were available.

The original 1964 Malibu SS came standard with the 6 cylinder. Not a Muscle Car despite the "SS".

Pontiac, unlike Chevrolet, only had the 389 and 421 engine options for the full sized cars. Thus "big car engine" meant more in a Pontiac than a Chevy.

It wasn't until 1965 that Chevy made the 396 available for the SS (Z16 package).

The 442 in 1964 was actually the "B09 Police Apprehender Pursuit"[5] option" with a 330 and a 3.55 posi rear. It wasn't until 1965 that the 400 cube V8 was available.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by The Champ

In 1964 - you could get an Impala/Biscayne/BelAire with a 230 ci 6, a 283, a 327, a 348, a 396 or a 427. Basically all engines except the anemic 194 ci 6 were available.

The original 1964 Malibu SS came standard with the 6 cylinder. Not a Muscle Car despite the "SS".

Pontiac, unlike Chevrolet, only had the 389 and 421 engine options for the full sized cars. Thus "big car engine" meant more in a Pontiac than a Chevy.

It wasn't until 1965 that Chevy made the 396 available for the SS (Z16 package).

The 442 in 1964 was actually the "B09 Police Apprehender Pursuit"[5] option" with a 330 and a 3.55 posi rear. It wasn't until 1965 that the 400 cube V8 was available.

LOL! Such an expert.

The 396 came out in 1965 and the 427 was introduced in 1966.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

LOL! Such an expert.

The 396 came out in 1965 and the 427 was introduced in 1966.

I stand corrected on the 396 - I should have said 409.

As to the 427 being introduced in 1966 - that was the second generation 427. The original one was introduced in 1963 as the Z11 package for the Impala SS. It was created for drag racing and NASCAR. It was a stroked 409 with dual quads and was a one year deal.

So, I was still wrong as that wasn't an option in 1964.

Glad to have an "expert" share "some" knowledge.

Bottom line, Chevy "big" cars had all kinds of engine options - unlike Pontiac.