[440GP69]

Art Carr and CPT now are Offering a New 2004R for Engines up to 1000hp This is in the New Car Craft Magazine FWIW, Art Carr has a New 300M input shaft and intermediate drum as well as everything else thats Beefed up, So Far they have an 800hp chevelle with 10,000 miles on one with No issues! and other tests and Dynoing as well with good results, I guess we have another option and this one bolts right in where a TH400 SS once was, Be interested to see Pricing and also what Jake shoe thinks about this!

[jakeshoe]

Pure advertisement.
Art Carr uses a welded and heat treated drum that would be be lucky to live at 600 HP much less 1000.

Nothing new about the billet input shafts, CKPerformance and TCS make them.

All the "real" builders are laughing at Art's claims over on TB.com but it spurred a good discussion of the problems at over 800 HP.

[Overkillphil]

Yeah, maybe a 1000 hp 4 cylinder with soggy sponge torque and no traction!

Even then it's Russian Roulette.

[440GP69]

LOL!, I guess That chevelle must never have gone to the track in that 10,000 miles! Probably would have scattered it Instantly!

[Billz428]

TB.com ? can you post a link ?

[jakeshoe]

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tra...-1-000-hp.html

[Slick]

I'm always dubious of driveline parts with horsepower ratings. Torque should be the measured limit. That's why lots of 800HP Chevys won't break a transmission/converter that a 500 HP Pontiac will. The Pontiac is making torque down low and isn't running as much rear gear, putting more load on the transmission. IMHO

Stuart

[Cliff R]

As mentioned in another thread. We have observed a 100 percent failure rate with 200's in Pontiac applications in the 600hp range. I've just been watching a few customers and friends of mine attempt to use them, and without exception they've had them back out at least once so far, but not all of the problems were catastrophic failures, but they still broke something.

In any case, I'll bet they give you an Arkansas Warrantee with the new 1000hp capable 200, "if you break it in half, you get both halves"!.....Cliff

[Overkillphil]

Not so fast Cliff!

The buyer would most likely, have to "squeal like a pig" to get that Arkansas warrantee honored!

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by Slick

I'm always dubious of driveline parts with horsepower ratings. Torque should be the measured limit. That's why lots of 800HP Chevys won't break a transmission/converter that a 500 HP Pontiac will. The Pontiac is making torque down low and isn't running as much rear gear, putting more load on the transmission. IMHO

Stuart

You are incorrect.
First of all we are predominately dealing with V8s here, a Pontiac doesn't make significantly more torque for a given cid than a Chevy, Ford, Buick, etc.(Sorry guys, break out the dyno sheets and we'll clear this up)
I see it mentioned all the time in Pontiac circles but I have yet to see a dyno sheet that proves it. Some engine have a SLIGHT advantage at certain rpm ranges due to port configuration, valve angle, valve seat angle, etc but you certain don't have a 500 HP Pontiac that has significantly more torque than a 800 HP Chevy both being anywhere NEAR the same cid.
Remember is takes torque to make that HP and we're not making it with extreme rpm in the case of a 4 cylinder...

If I rate a trans at 800 HP, I am also basically rating it at ~800 lb/ft of torque.

HP IS as much of a killer of a transmission as pure torque is. HP is tq measured against time.
Better stated, RPM can be a killer of a transmission. Extreme cases cause disintegrated drums from centrifugal force, less extreme cases are rolled sprags from the 14 lb direct drum coming to an instant stop on the 1-2 shift. Sprag doesn't care what the input torque is so much, it DOES care what the RPM is on the 1-2 shift, because if goes from ~85% of the input rpm to ZERO rpm in milliseconds, stopping that 14 lb drum along with it.

Centrifugal apply of clutches from the residual fluid in the drum moving outwards and creating pressure on the apply pistons outer edge, partially applying the clutches and burning them....

There is much more to it than "torque" when you are dealing with an automatic transmission. Sheering off shafts or other hard parts is in many cases not the common failure.

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

As mentioned in another thread. We have observed a 100 percent failure rate with 200's in Pontiac applications in the 600hp range. I've just been watching a few customers and friends of mine attempt to use them, and without exception they've had them back out at least once so far, but not all of the problems were catastrophic failures, but they still broke something.

As mentioned in another thread,
ya'll need to find another builder (s).

If ya'll are killing them at 600 HP, someone doesn't know what they are doing. I have Buick GN in the shop today for a transbrake install that has YEARS on one (unknown origin, like all the failed ones you mention) with over 500 RWHP.

[roadrage david]

CK performance ""
GM 2004R STAGE 2 TRANSMISSION


THE STAGE 2 2004R IS BUILT FOR ENGINES PRODUCING UP TO 800 FOOT POUNDS OF TORQUE. EACH TRANSMISSION IS PROFESSIONALLY ASSEMBLED AND THEN GIVEN A THOROUGH ROAD TEST IN OUR TEST VEHICLE TO GUARANTEE FLAWLESS OPERATION PRIOR TO SHIPPING.TRANSMISSION IS ASSEMBLED WITH THE PROPER SPEEDOMETER GEARS FOR YOUR APPLICAT.ION

COMPETITION COMPONENTS

E4340 STEEL BILLET SHAFT FORWARD CLUTCH DRUM.E4340 STEEL BILLET INPUT SHAFT.E4340 STEEL BILLET OVERDRIVE PLANETARY CARRIER ASSEMBLY.E4340 STEEL BILLET OVERDRIVE RING GEAR .HEAT TREATED STATOR TUBE.HEAT TREATED SUN GEAR SHELL.OVERSIZE BILLET ALUMINUM SERVO ASSEMBLY.ROLLERIZED OVERDRIVE RING GEAR,CENTER SUPPORT,DIRECT DRUM,FORWARD DRUM,SUN GEAR SHELL,LO REVERSE CLUTCH HOUSINGAND REAR INTERNAL GEAR. THESE BEARINGS REDUCE INTERNAL FRICTION AND HORSEPOWER LOSS CREATED AND CONSUMED DURING NORMAL INTERNAL COMPONENT ROTATION.THEY ALSO INCREASE THE THRUST SURFACE AREAS BETWEEN ROTATING INTERNAL COMPONMENTS.

CLUTCH AND BAND UPGRADES

OVERSIZED ALTO RED LINED 2ND GEAR BAND. CUSTOM DIRECT CLUTCH PACK WITH 7 ALTO RED LINED FRICTIONS AND OVERSIZE STEEL PLATES. UPDATED OVERDRIVE CLUTCH PACK WITH 3 BORG WARNER TAN FRICTIONS. CUSTOM CNC MACHINED BILLET ALUMINUM DIRECT CLUTCH PISTON .

HYDRAULIC UPGRADES
ALL BUILDS START WITH A BRAND NEW GENERAL MOTORS FRONT PUMP ASSEMBLY.THE PUMP IS THEN REWORKED AND ASSEMBLED WITH STEEL VANE RINGS,DUAL HIGH RATE PUMP SLIDE PRIMING SPRINGS,A NEW HEAVY DUTY PRESSURE REGULATOR SPRING ,AND OVERSIZED CNC MACHINED .555 TV BOOST VALVE AND REVERSE INTERMEDIATE BOOST VALVE.THESE MODIFICATIONS IMPROVE AND INCREASE LINE AND LUBRICTION PRESSURES. ADDITIONAL PASSAGES ARE ADDED TO THE CENTER SUPPORT FOR IMPROVED THRUST SURFACE LUBRICATION.REVISED DIRECT CLUTCH APPLY CIRCUITRY.DUAL FED DIRECT CLUTCH TRIPLES 3RD GEAR CLUTCH APPLY PRESSURE AND CLAMPING FORCE.

#2004R/2PSC $2899.00
2004R STAGE 2 TRANSMISSION WITH PRO STREET/STRIP CALIBRATION.
#2004R/2PSCTB $3399.00
2004R TRANSMISSION WITH PRO STREET/STRIP CALIBRATION AND ELECTRIC TRANSBRAKE.

[hurryinhoosier62]

It's STILL cheaper for me to install the TH400/GearVendors combo in the Cat. Damn,
that thing is EXPENSIVE!!!

[Cliff R]

"As mentioned in another thread,
ya'll need to find another builder (s).

If ya'll are killing them at 600 HP, someone doesn't know what they are doing."

Jake, we've been over this ground before....Cliff didn't have anything to do with these builds, and at least one of the units that failed came from a shop that swears his stuff lives just fine behind Viper's at 800hp (and higher). GREAT selling point, but a 600hp Pontiac engine has required that the transmission be removed at least twice, and maybe a time or two more but I wasn't taking good notes!

I've been at this game long enough to know when I'm getting ready to go down a path of diminishing returns. By the time I round up everything required to get a 200 to live for a while at 600hp, could have built 3, if not 4 KILLER TH400's, or at least one with a Gear Vendors sitting behind it. Makes the choice easy for me.

Even the better set-up 200's still loose a band or direct clutch pack when they see a LOT of track time with good traction. The "trend" I've observed is that they live quite a while 12's and slower, and at most 1 and sometimes 2 seasons running deeper into the 11's and even into the 10's. Below that, the failure rate is really high. (Of course the aftermarket continues to make better and better billet parts for them, among other things, so what I've been seeing is NOT necessarily completely up to date, or at least the latest efforts should produce more reliable units than we've been seeing?)

Basically, it's just not the best design in those respects. To be perfectly honest, I'm amazed at how well and how long some of them do work, in severe applications, but they still give up WAY to often for my liking, so we avoid them like the plague here!.......Cliff

[440GP69]

Seams with CK's new 10 clutch Drum "As Long as it Works" the Only Week Link after that will be Output shaft Failers from Very High Horse Power Heavy Cars even with 300m shafts? FWIW

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"As mentioned in another thread,
ya'll need to find another builder (s).

If ya'll are killing them at 600 HP, someone doesn't know what they are doing."

Jake, we've been over this ground before....Cliff didn't have anything to do with these builds, and at least one of the units that failed came from a shop that swears his stuff lives just fine behind Viper's at 800hp (and higher). GREAT selling point, but a 600hp Pontiac engine has required that the transmission be removed at least twice, and maybe a time or two more but I wasn't taking good notes!

I've been at this game long enough to know when I'm getting ready to go down a path of diminishing returns. By the time I round up everything required to get a 200 to live for a while at 600hp, could have built 3, if not 4 KILLER TH400's, or at least one with a Gear Vendors sitting behind it. Makes the choice easy for me.

Even the better set-up 200's still loose a band or direct clutch pack when they see a LOT of track time with good traction. The "trend" I've observed is that they live quite a while 12's and slower, and at most 1 and sometimes 2 seasons running deeper into the 11's and even into the 10's. Below that, the failure rate is really high. (Of course the aftermarket continues to make better and better billet parts for them, among other things, so what I've been seeing is NOT necessarily completely up to date, or at least the latest efforts should produce more reliable units than we've been seeing?)

Basically, it's just not the best design in those respects. To be perfectly honest, I'm amazed at how well and how long some of them do work, in severe applications, but they still give up WAY to often for my liking, so we avoid them like the plague here!.......Cliff

Cliff,
I didn't say you built them but when you claim a 100% failure rate at what I (and all the other good builders) consider a reasonable power level for a 200-4R, something is amiss.

I could be like Art Carr and say they are good for 1000 HP but I don't. I think i could do one at 800 HP/TQ and have it live for a season at a time no problem. It would need to be torn down and inspected for planet wear every year IMO but other than that I'm NOT the least bit concerned with 3rd clutch capacity (even with 6 plates) or the band. They simply don't burn up if you know what you are doing.

You personally claim 600+ HP with a 700 or 4L60E and if need be I can show you the math WHY the 200-4R direct clutch (when dual fed) has much more capacity than even the best 4l60 based trans on the market.

I am using about double the apply area as the 4l60 trans for 3rd gear. I can use the same friction area, and the pressures are going to be about the same in either unit built for performance use. ~250 psi line.


An aftermarket servo, a good red lined wide band, and a 300M pin, and there isn't a problem with the 2nd band either. It only has to make ONE shift from 1-4, where the 4L60 makes two, once in 2nd and again in 4th, so it gets heat cycled twice on a hard street run into 4th.

I took apart a 200-4R last year that had the odd lube failure on one bushing (converter trash?) and the band and 3rd clutches looked NEW. 1 yr of mid 10's with a transbrake in a GN (not super light). Not raced every weekend but always has drag radials on it and the parts looked new. No browning, no heat spotting, nothing. Re-used the clutches, replaced the center support, re-assembled.


12's is typically a 450 HP car, the 200-4R has plenty of capacity over that.

Is it a 1000 HP transmission, will it ever be? Not really IMO, because as you stated the 4L80E or a GV is more cost effective.


My best advice on the 200-4R is that you go to a good builder. CKPerformance, Lonnie Diers (Extreme Automatics) Brian Hofer, Brian Bissonette, Mike Ridings, Mike Kurtz, PTS, Don Wang, myself, or others who have taken the time to actually figure out what works.

All of these guys build them and all of them have them at over 600 HP reliably. CK, Lonnie, PTS, and others have them at the 800 HP level.

And next,
explain to me how a Pontiac has more torque cube for cube than any other similar combo.
Post up the dyno sheets.

[harry k]

part of these 100% failures in RETROFIT installs oppose to OE equiped vehicles w/2004R that i ve seen is : poor tv cable geometery period!
tv cable short/long tv bracket wrong ,tv link incorrect in valve body due to cores been ramuged many times in its previous history with stocktype rebuilders

so most of the bad rap comes not due to Pontiac engine making 600lbs tq but these installs were not dilligintelly confirmed to start with !

i see less OEM installed -built units to have problem than retrofits that come to my shop to get dynoed , and yes i get into lengthy conversations with them about OD trans work (who built the unit- what TQ they use -get all the feedback i can from them ),where they think i am a Dyno shop only

[stobin]

"Going down a path of diminishing returns". Very well put, and in Art Carr's case, well deserved. I have dealt with Art Carr in person many times when I had one of his "Max Performance" 800 HP 200R4 transmissions. As I have posted on this board before, if you want to waste some money, they will be happy to help. I was never able to get the transmission to perform properly, I returned the vehicle to them 4 times, and each time they promised to fix it properly. Having been there in person, I can tell you I was not impressed with him or his staff. It was more like a basic repair shop, rather than a top nothch race shop some people think they are. The final fix was to give me a new tranny and cooler. I immediately put an ad in Craig's List and sold it. If you have a high torque, heavy Pontiac, you will be better suited going with a TH400 and a Gear Vendors.

[jakeshoe]

The problem is,
many people think "big name" equals good reputation. It doesn't. As Stobin has experienced.

Art Carr was one of the original innovators of the 200-4R, and I'm sure helped it's reputation, but his units are known to not be up to the task.

ANYBODY can pay for the advertisement, schmooze the magazine guys and get their name in lights, and make any claim the want. Maybe Art does have ONE 200-4R at 800 HP living but using the "proprietary metalurgical process" on the stock 200-4R forward drum isn't getting it done. It's been tried by others and it DOES help but the stock drum is a weak design, weak materials, and will already have stresses induced by whatever usage it has had. You can't totally remove this with welding to brace it up, and heat treating it.

The 200-4R has limitations, no doubt. I build them without hesitation at the 550-600 HP/TQ range (yes even 600 lb ft of PONTIAC torque )
Above that level, I prefer the 4L80E. It's not that the 200-4R can't reliably do it, it's just that the 4L80E IS cheaper as far as actual transmission cost.

A 700-800 HP 200-4R would be a $26-2700 unit from me, a 800 HP 4L80E is a $2200 transmission.
Spend the other $500 on the controller, TPS, etc. In the end the 4L80E will be more overall but in 5 yrs you can call me and ask if I think it's needs a freshen up and I'll tell you to run it till it quits. A 200-4R will need a freshen up occasionally, mostly to look at the planets IMO.
All the 200-4Rs that I've put into service at the honest 500-600 HP range, probably about 30 of them total, I've had 2 warranty issues. One was a servo issue with an aftermarket servo that air checked fine, but had issues in service. If I had installed the trans it would have been fixed before leaving the shop, and another with a very odd lube issue at one bushing that I suspect was contamination from the converter or cooler.
None were hard parts or friction failures. I haven't been building full time for over a yr now, so all of them except one have at least a yr of service on them, many in GNs or behind BBC's that are frequently (but not primarily) drag raced. Many have 2-3 yrs of service at that power level.
And the circuitry for 2-3 shift has been improved in that time. The last 3 or 4 I built have the latest circuit mods, and the others don't, yet they are still living fine.

[440GP69]

Good Info! Its always appreciated! One Thing i do like on the 200 is the Gears and the spread between them, But overall I'd rather Just not Break 3500$ trannies!, Pontiacs Do Produce A Lot of Torque, Ive Personally built Caddies,Chevy Big and Small, Ford FE,Buick 455',Olds 400's and455's. Out of all Ive done Pontiac,Buick,Olds, and Caddy 500 all Made The Most Torque Down Low, Combine a BOPC Tractor Engine with Tall gears, Heavy car,3000 stall and you can Build some heat in those Trannies, Now Modified Chevy to Modified Pontiac, Anythings Possible Its just an Air pump, Pontiac came with Small high velocity Ports and that Lends its self to Big Torque down low and Not much Upstairs Unlike a Rectangle Port Chevy JMO