[RRGTO]

What't wrong with running box stock E heads? The reason I ask is that all the Pontiac specialists seem to only sell them modified. They say "Ported" with Ferrea valves, P.C. teflon seals, Honed valve guides, HP springs, ect, and then jack the price up at least a couple hundred dollars. I can understand modifying them for all out racing but It seems to me that the stock 290 CFM flow and hardware is good enouth for most street/strip up to say 550 or so HP. I mean how much bang for the buck are you going to get from 10-20 CFM? Not much I figure. How much better are the Ferrea valves? And What about the stock valve guides? These heads stock flow better stock then most "race" ported cast Iron head ever did. What do you guys think?

[RRGTO]

What't wrong with running box stock E heads? The reason I ask is that all the Pontiac specialists seem to only sell them modified. They say "Ported" with Ferrea valves, P.C. teflon seals, Honed valve guides, HP springs, ect, and then jack the price up at least a couple hundred dollars. I can understand modifying them for all out racing but It seems to me that the stock 290 CFM flow and hardware is good enouth for most street/strip up to say 550 or so HP. I mean how much bang for the buck are you going to get from 10-20 CFM? Not much I figure. How much better are the Ferrea valves? And What about the stock valve guides? These heads stock flow better stock then most "race" ported cast Iron head ever did. What do you guys think?

[larry davis]

I hear what your sayin', & agree to a point.
I guess it all boils down to personal preference(s) & application(s). For most the out of box heads are plenty. You will on average gain about 10% w/ no other mods. But if your upgrading to Es, why not go ahead and tweak them to get more out of them?
I'm presently polishing the combustion chambers on my bare 72cc E-heads, as I don't like the as cast finish. Several Pontiac gurus have told me it's a waste of time, that it doesn't gain anymore actual power. But, here again, I want something more than box stock. I know it will help in detonation resistance and I can't imagine why it wouldn't help flow somewhat.
I believe the major improvements most of the gurus perform is relative to their proprietary valve jobs and resultant bowl work.
The stock valves, springs, retainers, etc... would not have optimized my roller cam combination, so again it was better for my application not to use them.
My .02.

[RRGTO]

I understand there is always room for improvement and certain mods such as roller cams would require changes to the stock heads. My hydraulic cammed 406" motor isn't stock except for the heads so I'd expect at least 425-450HP if I replace my stock 670's. I'm just looking for the most bang and quality for my buck. My buddy is in the market right now for heads on his street/strip 428 as his stock 670's have a cracked up exhaust valve. He is considering the E-heads so I'm trying to help him make an economical decision.

[Tom Vaught]

"What't wrong with running box stock E heads?"

Nothing!

" The reason I ask is that all the Pontiac specialists seem to only sell them modified. They say "Ported" with Ferrea valves, P.C. teflon seals, Honed valve guides, HP springs, ect, and then jack the price up at least a couple hundred dollars."

They buy the heads in VOLUME as bare casting at a
better price than the assembled heads. They also want to do their own valve jobs and the bare heads
will allow them to do this rather than FIX the
assembled heads. The stock heads use an SI brand
stainless valve where the Ferrea valve is a valve
designed more for HP usage. They make more money on the individual pieces Too!

"I can understand modifying them for all out racing but It seems to me that the stock 290 CFM flow and hardware is good enouth for most street/strip up to say 550 or so HP. I mean how much bang for the buck are you going to get from 10-20 CFM? Not much I figure.

It is not so much that they ONLY got 20 more CFM
but where they got it and at how many points on the curve. Some people will KILL for 20 more CFM.

"How much better are the Ferrea valves? And What about the stock valve guides? These heads stock flow better stock then most "race" ported cast Iron head ever did. What do you guys think? "

I agree with Larry. Most Hard Core racers will buy
the bare castings as they will be changing Springs, Retainers, locks, Valves heights, pushrod
lengths anyway so why buy the parts you don't need.

I have three sets of E-Heads. One set has been worked a great deal for a blower motor. A second
set was designed for a high rpm small (366 type)
engine. The third set are bolted on a street type
455 engine and are "Bone Stock" except for the valve springs. This should tell you where I stand
on the heads. Tom V.

[RRGTO]

I understand what you both are saying. After talking with my friend and checking out the costs of rebuilding his D-ports he decided to go with the stock 87cc E-heads and super comp 2" headers for his 428. It will be tempting to follow suit after he blows my doors off.

[ABets]

You raised some good questions. I have a set of the "stock" 87cc versions to go an a 455 and I had the same questions as well. I finally decided I will build the engine with the unmodified E-heads. I can make changes later as time and money permit so I can see gaines (or losses) in power and 1/4 mile et with each modification. I'll learn a lot. I figure the "stock" heads will allow more room for improvement and it'll be fun. Besides, if you don't run the heads without porting, you'll never know if the porting was worth it.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

[ May 03, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: PONTIAC DUDE ]

[Tom Vaught]

PDUDE, the numbers I see often on a bench for the
"E" heads are 275 at 25" for 72cc and 265 at 25"
for 87cc heads. I suppose that it could be possible for a 72cc head to go over 290 at 28"
but than would normally be a stretch. Tom V.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Ditto, Tom

[RRGTO]

Tom, P-dude, the 290 CFM I quoted was at 28" H20 not 25". It was from an article on them from Car Craft when they first came out. It actually might have been around 295 but definitely less then 300. This was for the 72cc versions. The 87cc ones flowed around 280-285 if I remember correctly. They definitely did flow less then the 72's but I don't remember why. I have to did up that article again. These were Edelbrock's #'s.

[Jim Hand]

Tom, Dude, RRGTO,
Edelbrock lists the 87 cc heads as flowing 275 cfm @ .6 lift at 28" pressure, which would be 260 @ 25" pressure, and 164 @ 10" pressure.

I measure them at 163 @ 10" pressure on my Super Flow 110 bench. When converted to 25" and 28" using the standard conversion factors, that is 258 @ 25", and 272 @ 28" pressure.

So it appears we are all seeing/measuring the 87cc head about the same! Edelbrock advertises the 72 cc head as 286 @ .6 @ 28" pressure in the '99 catalog. Jim Hand

[Robert Williams]

The Car Craft Article was May 1995 and they called it Indian Uprising. Also in High Performance Pontiac October 1995 an artical on the E-heads named Breathing Hard. In Hot Rod Mag January 1998 Artical named Deep Breathin Pontiacs, and Popular Hot Rodding June 1997 Article named Edelbrock Heads Equal More Pontiac Power.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

[ May 03, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: PONTIAC DUDE ]

[Skip Fix]

My flow bench is a little stingy on the top end flow anyway, close to what you guys are seeing.

Tom, Don't think the 215cc ports are too big for a small motor?

[Skip Fix]

One comment I forgot to make on magazine articles , my old machinist always said take it with a grain of salt as the manufacturers are the ones tha pay for ad space there! They aren't scientific papers with peer review for reproducible rsults.

He built a 455 for Muscle Car Review a few years ago that on his dyno (very conservative figures) was too low so they printed numnbers from another dyno.

[RRGTO]

I know what you quys are saying about advertising and possible exagerations. I've seen some dyno tests which I really questioned. I'm pretty sure I've seen products trashed before though. Take the recent article in Car Craft where they dyno tested a 500+ hp motor with all different sizes of K&N air filters along with no air filter and showed that it DIDN'T MAKE ANY REAL DIFFERNCE!!! They admitted it was contrary to what they have always preached. I don't think that did much for K&N, especially on their bigger more expensive air filters.

[Steve C.]

How consistant are box-stock E-heads from port-to-port on a bench?

[David Holmberg]

Steve, David Butler told me that the 72cc's jump around from the 260's to the 280's.