[sub4600]

The story continues...The guy flew out today to checkout the car and thought the paint job and body work was not worth 17k...pointed out a couple of fish eyes and a very slight bow on the rear quarter, tried to weasel me down to 14k and I'm going to pass, you saw the before photos, the car came out really nice, not perfect, but very nice for a driver condition...gets better, while he was looking under the back seat to see the floors and pulled the carpet back, guess what showed up...the vin tag! Ok, now I pose the question, since neither the cars vin, plates, nor CHP ID are in the system, should I have the original vin plate put back on the car, since it is on the title?????? I want to solve this, but don't want to touch another vin issue. The guy here locally wants the car for 16500.00 still, but I want to make sure I'm doing everything correctly. I also looked closer at the PHS docs on this car and the engine ID is the same as I have, making me feel a little better knowing this car goes with this vin. Help, fast!!!!!!!! Thanks

[steve v]

You mean to say you did a "frame up" resto on this 40 year old car, replaced weather strips, seats, headliner, repainted the dash and who knows what else but you didn't have to change the carpeting? The same rugs that were in this "parts car setting on a California farm for years" were nice enough for a show quality car? And now the missing tags show up under the carpet by some miricale? Hmmmmm, strange place to keep your vin tags, Good luck to the buyer!
Steve

[sub4600]

Steve, The carpets were in great original condition, not faded or torn, why would I replace them? I cleaned them, but that is all they needed. I like to keep as much of the original equipment on a car, ie. windlace, knobs, ect., to keep the car as original as possible. If parts are in decent restorable shape, why go repro. I finally get a break and this is how you respond? Never claimed this to be a show car, driver yes, but not show. I just want to know if it is legal or not to put this back on, or if it still has to get a HWP id, but include this with the sale. This tag has been missing since before the guy who owned it before me. I don't even know if it is legal if this one would go back on know, because it looks like the holes were the rivots go through have been drilled out too large, for it to be re-attached. If it is legal, can this be glued on or epoxy, or must it be rivot?

[66 tempest]

I realy thought i heard it all, STEVE made a good point.. if I were to do all that, i would be a bit curious to look under it, to see the floor pans from above.. and God only knows why the vin would be there.. I know I'll hide the vin tag under the carpet, no one will look there, hey maybe i'll put my extra set of house keys there too.. if this was me, and I was getting all this attention from the previous bad sale, I would keep my mouth shut about the vin tag popping up, and asking help. Not to humiliate myself further, and you said the paint job and body was show quality, yet there's fish eye's in the paint, and there's a slight bow, WHY! telling anyone this?? and since when do you get a show quality paint job, spendng 300.00 on paint, if thats the case go in business painting cars.. I feel like an idiot, because I didn't want to cut you down, but Damm man, pull yourself together.. i have two word for you STOP IT!!! (just) STOP IT!!

[PonchoV8]

Oh man! BWAHAHAAHAA! The VIN dropped into the car when the state removed them to put on the CHP VIN for sale at public auction--or theft recovery? It got a CHP VIN because someone took off the VIN in the first place and the car was at one time impounded because of that--and the VIN got dropped into the back? Historically, CA is about the worst state for popping a CHP VIN on the car.

[sub4600]

Wait a minute, Doug your probably right on with CA chp and how the vin ended up were it did. 66 Tempest, regardless of what you think, or if it sounds suspicious to you, it is what happend. Why would I go through all the questions on the vin and title if I knew were it was. If I found it back when I started restoring the car, I probably would have just put it back on and thought nothing of it. The paint and body are awesome, it has one or two fish eyes that until the guy jacked up the car and hit it in different light and angles could not be seen. The guy went over it with a fine tooth comb and said it would need a complete new paint job in his opinion and that his cars were perfect. If this was a frame off and I spent 6-8k on the paint, then yes, I would perfect also, but I spent all together around 3k and it came out damn good. This car would never sell to this guy, because he is used to frame-off and I think he felt he was going to get a 25k GTO for a steal. the local guy who is interested saw the car before it went into the shop and saw it after and was amazed and thought the paint was awesome. Alot has to do with the individual and there standards of what is a great paint job and what is not. I don't paint cars, but can tell a Macco job from a shop job. they blocked the whole car and it came out straight and nice. 300.00 for a gallon and a quart I think is on the upper end of base coat costs, then the clear coat was extra. The shop said I could pay 100.00 dollars more for there best paint, but would not see any difference and they reccomended that brand. Stop what? This is a forum for enthusiasts and to learn. I have a ton of questions on these cars as I restore them and these two had a couple of big issues, but this is one of the best resources of individuals who have seen alot more than I have. Were else do can you go? So stop what?

Found this under California law.

CALIFORNIA CODES
VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 10750-10752



10750. (a) No person shall intentionally deface, destroy, or alter
the motor number, other distinguishing number, or identification mark
of a vehicle required or employed for registration purposes without
written authorization from the department, nor shall any person place
or stamp any serial, motor, or other number or mark upon a vehicle,
except one assigned thereto by the department.
(b) This section does not prohibit the restoration by an owner of
the original vehicle identification number when the restoration is
authorized by the department, nor prevent any manufacturer from
placing in the ordinary course of business numbers or marks upon new
motor vehicles or new parts thereof.

Looks like I need to have the DMV, or sherif give me the OK before I do anything.

[Jerry H.]

Here we go again-----

[6tee7goat]

Ok, I'm new here and this was the first thread that I started reading. In fact this is my first post. It's been a very interesting subject to say the least and I agree with the fact that we are all here to learn. That is why I would like to digress a little(it that's allowed within a topic) about something that was brought up.

So for my own knowledge, what exactly are 'fish eyes' in paint and what causes them.

[66 tempest]

fish eye's in paint i believe is from water in the air line and or silicones on the surface.. "what to stop" asing legal advice.. talk to a lawyer on this, anyone could be wrong on this thread in giving you advice, and if you should take it and find out that it puts yourself in another prediciment, the blame will be on the forum, these guys will never hear the end ( when will this end) take some of your profit and seek a lawyer, I have no problem seeking advice on here, or help with restoring your cars, but when it comes to vins, it clearly sounds like your not getting the help here, so ONCE again "STOP IT" PLEEEEAASEEE

[Fred's red sled]

66 Tempest. With all respect, I don't think GTO_BUYER has asked for legal advice. I think he has asked for technical advice. We have delighted in offering free legal and moral advice.
I have enjoyed this post like none I can remember and have to say I think GTO_BUYER has been a pretty good sport in staying active in this.
As this goes on, I find myself liking him more and more. He has really exposed himself to us and takes the grief; head-on,like a man. The tags under the carpet...I laughed myself silly here at the kitchen table. Either he has a great sense of humor, is totally cranking our chains or has some really odd luck.
Keep it going, please!!
Fred

[PonchoV8]

Believe it or not it happens. I was digging in a parts car that had no VIN in a junkyard one day and found the car's VIN in a big pile of rust where it had dropped from under the dash. That's a little different, but it surprised me.

I'm not gonna tell him what to do on this one, but it sounds like he is going to approach it right.

Fisheyes--I've seen them as a result of worn air compressors letting oil into the air supply too--and not trapped/separated.

[RJGTO67]

Amen to that, FRS. Or has 66 Tempest confused GTO_Buyer with the new member-6tee7goat?

[sub4600]

66 Tempest, take some advice from Fred's Red Sled post, I never asked for legal advice, have kept the questions relating to GTO's and vins. We all have them here (well...now I do). I called my local DMV and they said if I wish to keep the original vin plate, they will give the sherif the correct rivots, but I need to have the sherif inspect it again and have all the paperwork for proof of ownership. Remember that these are 40 year old cars, not fresh off the factory cars that have not been owned or abbandoned by several owners over the years. Fred, could be yanking a chain, but actually just got really lucky, once I was taking a trip to Nevada in an old Dodge Dart and the alternator went out in Utah in some nothing little hick town...everything was closed on Suday, including the auto parts store, so sat down under a tree to think about what to do and looked next to the tree and saw something shiny...it was an alternator, just sitting there, so took a look at it and it looked like a Mopar one, took it over to the car and the pulleys matched up, so thught I would give it a try. It went on and we drove all the way to Reno, sold the car a year later with it still on there, with vin tags too!
I'm not going to be the only guy buying older cars who comes into some of these problems and this will most definately make a precident for others to refer too and get information. This forum has nothing to do with anything from a legal stand point with me, I don't take what is written here as the bible, but do listen to what others say, good and bad. So once again, stop what?

"Lifes battles don't always go to the strongest and fastest. Sooner or later, those who think they can win, will."

[sub4600]

6tee7goat
I have heard that fish-eyes also come from an impurity or solvent that brushed against an area or got wiped before painting with a rag with something on it and won't let the paint adheare to that particular spot leaving a little dimple were it trys to pull away, but I really don't know for sure. I think the air compressor line sounds more inline as they do have oil that runs them and a speck of oil would have that effect on paint.

[Jerry H.]

By all means, get the correct rivets from the DMV and have the sheriff inspect the car and put the correct vin tag back on it. Then you will have no questions about the vin on the car.

[66 tempest]

if i remember correctly, and i dont feel like readingthis stuff gain, but wheren't there a few members giving legal advice? after all aren;t you sending a semblemenal message seeking legal advice?? or was that a smoke screen? <guote> posted August 24, 2004 08:39 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by gto_buyer:
Dear Mr. Catania,

I have reviewed the information provided by Jack Kee. Your listing clearly states a 1967 GTO hardtop. My client received a 1967 Tempest. Your contract does state "as is" but it also clearly states 1967 GTO. You state numerous times that the vehicle being sold is a GTO, this is pure fraud. Please respond ASAP as the FBI is being reviewing this matter and we will pursue this matter through the legal system. Please advise me on you will be resolving this matter.

Cordially,
Adam Marangell
Attorney at Law

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Okay. At this point, he's throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what will stick. The threat about the FBI reviewing the matter - that's a joke. Frankly, I'm not certain he's permitted to make the threat of criminal prosecution to get you to meet his demands - he's arguably treading on thin ice. California Rule of Professional Conduct 5-100(a) provides as follows:

Rule 5-100. Threatening Criminal, Administrative, or Disciplinary Charges

(A) A member shall not threaten to present criminal, administrative, or disciplinary charges to obtain an advantage in a civil dispute.

The rules govern the conduct of attorneys practicing in the state.

Also - I've never heard of "pure fraud." That's a new one to me! And, if that's the e-mail he actually sent you - ugh - the grammar is horrible.

The lawyer you talked to is generally correct when it involves a mistake of fact in a contract dispute. Normally, the "professional" is considered to have superior knowledge and is charged with more culpability where the parties make a mistake in the context of a contract. That "rule" doesn't apply where there is alleged misrepresentation. Also - FYI - negligent misrepresentation may consititute fruad in certain circumstances.

I would not talk with his attorney any further and would not put anything in writing. Of course, keep everything he sent you - and print a copy of that e-mail about the FBI being involved.

Good luck.

sounds to me like some may be giving legal advice.. another <quote> posted August 24, 2004 11:30 PM
I'm looking at this as an impartial party.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
please understand that I had no knowledge when I bought this and when I sold this that it was not a GTO. The PHS docs he has are correct for the vin that is stamped, just not for this car though. Keep in mind, for 7 months this guy was completely happy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



We all know PHS matches the VIN totally. Titles don't match data plates, they match VINS--you admit this later. A Pontiac data plate never matches a VIN. Don't forget he has the title that you provided him recorded in both your state and his---with 235 in the VIN on the car and title.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

my response: (your email to the attorney)

If you see the title of the car it clearly states 1967 GTO hardtop, that is how I purchased it and that is how I sold it.From the information I gathered from the vehicles data plate, it stated 67 GTO two door hard top, Tyrol blue color, with a parchment interior, air conditioning, three speed transmission, V8, with bucket seats.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Specifically what info on the data plate says it's a GTO? Because you answered my question to whether you knew what 242 and 235 meant in your 1:37PM post above this quote "I was unware of the 242 when I sold it." saying you didn't know that "242" meant it was a GTO.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I knew little about Vin id's except that it had to match the title. If he has been in the automobile industry as long as he says and knows so much about cars, why did he not research this before buying, instead of coming back nearly two months later to make this claim. There was nothing to my knowledge that this car was not a GTO and the title and data plate confirm that. You as a lawyer should know the definition of fraud is defined as a deception deliberately practiced to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You clearly say you know the VIN has to match the title, but it doesn't. So, that by definition is knowledge that it isn't a match. Any lawyer will be able to define this as fraud or misrepresentation.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In researching since Mr. Kees accusations, I found that the data plate, not the Vin is the most important plate on the car, as it shows the S.O. (sales order) number, usually in the lower right-hand-corner. This is the number dedicated to the car before it is built and assigned a VIN.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is incorrect. What does the SO mean to the buyer? Data plate is of no significance to legally selling, buying, titling, registering or owning the car.

quote:
AND WHATS THIS ANOTHER <QUOTE> researched at PHS). I understand the buyer is pissed but if you said his attorney is basically posturing and has no intention to follow up, give him a call and work with him.

Finally, pay for a lawyer and get some real legal advice. There are too many "soapbox and barstool lawyers" here saying what is right and wrong, but none of it passes for legal advice. if it costs, pay the money becaue the piece of mind you will get is worth it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Geeto 67:
Finally, pay for a lawyer and get some real legal advice. There are too many "soapbox and barstool lawyers" here saying what is right and wrong, but none of it passes for legal advice. if it costs, pay the money becaue the piece of mind you will get is worth

SOUNDS like a lot of people trying to give legal advice, and GTO-buyer IF IN FACT you not here looking for it, do what so many others advice, seek a lawyer, we are not lawyers, any other would be here say..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 66 tempest:
SOUNDS like a lot of people trying to give legal advice, and GTO-buyer IF IN FACT you not here looking for it, do what so many others advice, seek a lawyer, we are not lawyers, any other would be here say.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I come to the boards because I am a weekend mechanic, love my Pontiac, and often need advice from those who have expertise with classic Pontiacs. The people on these boards come from all walks of life, some are plumbers, some carpenters, some cooks, some accountants, and some are attorneys . People contribute what they can. That said - speak only of your own qualifications and not of others that have areas of expertise outside of your own.

Thanks and have a great day.

[PonchoV8]

66 Tempest, your only the last to tell him to contact a lawyer--the rest of us did that long ago. I don't know that I would call it legal advice. I illustrated a couple of points and problems that were obvious or that I have personal experience with though. I've researched title and VIN issues regarding CA vehicles in the past.
Here's some more legal advise. Don't speed in a school zone.

[66 tempest]

personally, i like to see this thread end, it's like a soap opera. but before it does I'de like to know from GTO-BUYER if he took the forums advice..

#1 did you make things rite with the buyer? should say did you do the right thing??

#2 did you seek advice from a lawyer???

#3 if you did seek legal advice, tell us what
the lawyer advised you, after all this forum is about helping others, with advice, and what not...

so please tell us all what you have learned and what you have done with the advice of the forum.

[sub4600]

66 Tempest, nothing has happend yet. It is sitting right now, with me willing to accept partial blame if he does also and so far that has not come to be. I'm not about to sell that car 4,000.00 just because that is what they said it appraised for. I spoke with an automobile attorney and he seems to feel it will never go to court and if it does it would be thrown out because although an aggrieved person can bring a fraud case under common law statutes. Buyers may have more protection if the seller was a dealer or auction house, because consumer cases in most states can't be brought against individuals, only vendors actively involved in trade. And since it was my first GTO purchase and the title says GTO, not Tempest and the vin does match the title, it would be difficult to prove I fraudulently represented the car. I do want to do the right thing though, but I need them to compromise and accept that we both were at fault in not doing our due diligence. And give an honest fair market value for this car instead of an unrealistic low ball figure. If the value of a nicley restored clone as mentioned in this thread is roughly half that of an original, then NADA has the 1967 with the options I had at an average value of 22,310.00, half would be 11,155.00, I have offered 4000.00 which exceeds that, but has not been accepted. I had over 10,000.00 into the car, including my initial 7,000.00 purchase price and approx. 3500.00 in restoration, not including my time.

A unilateral mistake does not render a contract voidable except where the mistake is due to the fault of the other party or the other party knows or has reason to know there is a mistake. (Restatement fo Contracts, 2d § 153).

What have I learned...alot! Never buy a car without a vin, or title, or missing anything. Never buy a car without getting PHS docs, verifiying the data plate info with the options on the car and to the vin. Don't believe that it is no problem when there is a problem to fix. Finally, listen to your peers, most are pretty honest and have valid opinions, although there are a few jamoaks out there.

I guess I'm not supposed to "stop it" now?