[elefantrider]

The pic of the '59 being pulled is cool, in widescreen CinemaScope! I just noticed after rereading your last post that it is tied down without front wheels. Must be hard to get on and off the trailer that way.

Most new dolley manufacturers say they are for towing front wheel drive cars only, probably for driveline liability issues. I have used one before on a rear wheel drive pontiac, 100 miles, no issues. New ones come with brakes now, there is even one model out now with hydraulic disks. Is it still a good idea to remove the driveshaft when towing an auto trans pontiac.

[goatwgn]

It is best to remove the shaft, and plug the tailshaft. That way you are not spinning any parts at the rear of the transmission without lubrication- remember, the front pump isnt turning.

[geeteeohguy]

I agree Steve, Day Two cars are few and far between, what with the value of numbers matching restorations in the past 20 of so years. Like yourself, I have been a second hand GTO owner since the days they were a couple of hundred bucks, and always a bit "used". I would clean up the exterior, install some Ansen slots, Highjacker shocks, put a Sun Super Tach on the column, apply the "WFO" sticker to the back window, and be all set to go! Performance upgrades came before cosmetics, though. I took my GTO camping, 4-wheeling, exploring, etc, as it was the only transportation I had. Cleaning out my late father's estate a few years ago, I found my old chrome barefoot gas pedal, dimmer pedal, Sun Tach, and "the 500" cal custom steering wheel. Great memories. Speaking of cars towing trailers, back in the '60's and '70's, that's how it was. The only people with pickups were folks with cab-over campers, and gardeners or contractors. Everybody towed with a car or a wagon. My neighbors towed their Piper Cub with a '62 Plymouth wagon. The '65 GTO I've had since '82 had a trailer hitch on it when I bought it. As did a '66 Coronet 440 4 speed I used to have. And, recently, I was driving from Fresno to the coast on Highway 41 and came across a mint '60 Bonneville 4-door vista-top (burgundy with a silver top) towing a mint Airstream trailer. Pretty cool.

[Steve Barcak]

Originally Posted by elefantrider

The pic of the '59 being pulled is cool, in widescreen CinemaScope! I just noticed after rereading your last post that it is tied down without front wheels. Must be hard to get on and off the trailer that way.

Most new dolley manufacturers say they are for towing front wheel drive cars only, probably for driveline liability issues. I have used one before on a rear wheel drive pontiac, 100 miles, no issues. New ones come with brakes now, there is even one model out now with hydraulic disks. Is it still a good idea to remove the driveshaft when towing an auto trans pontiac.

Getting the car loaded and unloaded is not that bad. I use 2 of the lightwieght alum floor jacks from Harbor Freight and some 2 by 4s. Jack up the car below the cowl then roll the dolley in or out.
At this time in my life, am trying to keep expenses as low as possible to pay off the acreage for the Pontiac museum so, using the GTO to tow cars is a temporary thing but, other towing, like one of my boats, etc is a lifelong thing.

[elefantrider]

What is the sweet spot of Compression Ratios for an iron head 455 or 428 that needs to tow and be reliable in a hot climate with hills? 9 to 9.25:1 is too high?

Does the heavier load increase the chances for detonation at that low a CR level?

[Ben M.]

I personally am a fan of 8.5:1. Run on pretty much any cat pee gas and not have to worry too much about detonation provided the rest of the cooling and ignition system is in good shape. You can get decent performance from that range too with the proper cam choice. Other guys have their preferences higher, so I'm sure you'll get opinions varying. My main concern is being out and about on the backroads and having to trust the gas that goes in the tank from any station out there.

[elefantrider]

For how little I will tow with the car, I am open to paying 20cents more per gallon for 91 if it gets me a little more pulling power by allowing a higher CR, say 9:1. At the current price in So. California, there is only a 5% difference in price per gallon, 91 vs 87.

[Steve Barcak]

Originally Posted by elefantrider

For how little I will tow with the car, I am open to paying 20cents more per gallon for 91 if it gets me a little more pulling power by allowing a higher CR, say 9:1. At the current price in So. California, there is only a 5% difference in price per gallon, 91 vs 87.

There are other factors to consider-
outside temps when towing
engine temp
ign timing
to name a few.
So, there are ways to get around running a little more compression in the winter and keeping the engine running cooler in the summer, perhaps set the timing back a bit to the point of detonation. It is easy enough to do on the side of the road if you have to.

[Mister Pontiac]

Originally Posted by elefantrider

For how little I will tow with the car, I am open to paying 20cents more per gallon for 91 if it gets me a little more pulling power by allowing a higher CR, say 9:1. At the current price in So. California, there is only a 5% difference in price per gallon, 91 vs 87.

I don't know how much more 'power' you'll find with higher compression, but the old theory is 6% per static compression point. If so...

Today I finally saw $2.99/gallon for 87 octane here in Phoenix. That means 91 should cost a mere $0.20 more/gallon, or $3.19. That's roughly 6%, more per gallon, or when filling a 20 gallon tank, $4.00 more total cost per fillup ($63.80 vs $59.80 per tankful). And once the cost of fuel begins rising again (as we know it will), the difference as a percentage begins to drop. In other words, 6% or less is not much when viewed this way. And if you're gaining 6% more power by running another point of compression, sounds like you're real close to break even.

I too run 91 octane for other reasons than towing, but your math is still exactly right. Of course you have to watch as many stations will jump as much as $0.15/gallon per grade, so you must look at the cost of premium, not base 87 when shopping for gas. I watch this regularly myself.

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

There are other factors to consider-
outside temps when towing
engine temp
ign timing
to name a few.
So, there are ways to get around running a little more compression in the winter and keeping the engine running cooler in the summer, perhaps set the timing back a bit to the point of detonation. It is easy enough to do on the side of the road if you have to.

Absolutely right. A quick adjustment with a wrench can quickly retard the timing enuf to make an engine live in a hostile environment. I only do this when I have to, typically during the hotter months.

Just more of the 'tricks' we use when dealing with the current fuel situation, eh?

Keep driving 'em guys...

[elefantrider]

That is the beauty of using flat tops instead of dished pistons, you can chase a specific CR by swapping relatively inexpensive heads until you find a sweet spot that works. Looks like with the 114cc heads i have available, I will build it for 8.5-8.75:1 and see how that does. 98cc heads would put me at 9.25:1 which might be a tad much for towing carefree around here.

I like the idea of an in-cab dial timing control unit for towing. MSD has one but I'm not sure if it will work with a stock points-type ignition.

[elefantrider]

Anyone know if an original 455 2bbl Rochester 2gc carb would be better for fuel economy, towing and low rpm torque than a quadrajet? These were offered on 455s from the factory in 71-72, as a towing option i believe? My thought is they offer greater throttle opening without getting into the big secondaries of the quadrajet. Any thoughts on this?

[elefantrider]

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

Yes, these engines can be built with relatively cheap parts- i use 6X heads but, there are many other castings that would work fine. I only burn regular gas, never premium. The '66 GTO currently uses this combo for great reliability and very decent mileage and it tows well too.
455, forged pistons, baffled pan, windage tray, 6X heads cleaned up, puny 068 cam, small rockers, '72 intake, HEI, 3 tube headers, 700 trans, 2.93 rear gear. Currenly not using the lock up so, no electronics to the trans.
The engine/head/cam combo seems to really like the 2.93 gear. It lives in the 1,200-1,800 rmp range and rarely ever sees rpms over 2,500. It has pleny of torque/pulling power at low rpms.
I plan to experiment with a few mielage intakes- the Offy dual port and the Edel sp2p sometime.
GTO gets 11-33 towing more than its own weight and 16-18 when not towing.
I just towed a '61 Catalina 250 miles through the mountains to my new place with the 66 the other day. Towing and daily useage is a constant with this car. It has to be reliable as I do not have another car together at this time. The GTO added close to 5,000 miles in the last month. Most of it towing. It is not my official tow car but, has to fill in until others are ready.

Steve, curious to know how your rod bearings look after years of towing at 1200-1800rpm. Do you use a high pressure 80 psi pump or double groove main bearings to help it live?

[goatwgn]

Originally Posted by elefantrider

Anyone know if an original 455 2bbl Rochester 2gc carb would be better for fuel economy, towing and low rpm torque than a quadrajet? These were offered on 455s from the factory in 71-72, as a towing option i believe? My thought is they offer greater throttle opening without getting into the big secondaries of the quadrajet. Any thoughts on this?

When I installed my 455 back in 1987, I actually ran it with the 326 manifold with the 2 bbl for a little while, until I found a good carburetor for the 4 bbl manifold. Throttle response was unreal, and the economy, from what I remember was a little better, but that may have been because I wasnt getting into the secondaries. Would run out of breath by 4000 rpms or so, but this may be the hot ticket for what you are looking for. Basically a maintainence free setup as well. They did install these on 455s in the early '70s. '71 and '72 I beleive. I have seen them.

[Steve Barcak]

Originally Posted by elefantrider

Anyone know if an original 455 2bbl Rochester 2gc carb would be better for fuel economy, towing and low rpm torque than a quadrajet? These were offered on 455s from the factory in 71-72, as a towing option i believe? My thought is they offer greater throttle opening without getting into the big secondaries of the quadrajet. Any thoughts on this?

Not sure, someone should try it and report back. It would be easy if you are not using an OD trans. If you are, you would need to mount your tv cable to the 2gc somehow.

[Steve Barcak]

Originally Posted by elefantrider

Steve, curious to know how your rod bearings look after years of towing at 1200-1800rpm. Do you use a high pressure 80 psi pump or double groove main bearings to help it live?

I use standard bearings and a reg 60 pound pump. The 1,200-1,800 rpm is on level ground. I use 3rd gear in the mountains going uphill so, it is over that range at that time.

[elefantrider]

Any improvements made to the steering? 12:1 ratio? I just replaced my centerlink....amazed at the difference it made, but the box is at full adjustment and could use a rebuild.

[elefantrider]

What about control arms? Those 30+ yr. old, stock stamped units, can you rely on them?
Apparently, b-body arms are the exact same as a-body which opens up lots of aftermarket options.

[HWYSTR455]

I used some knock-off tubular control arms on the clone that I got from ebay, look exactly like the GW arms, and the set was under $300 shipped for all 4. Just be sure you pick the right ones. I believe Right Stuff also has them, with a little mark up. I looked them over carefully, welds and all were good and they fit well. No problem with alignment or tracking, car drives well.

Like these for $230:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/64-72-Chevel...9a44f8&vxp=mtr

Or these for $250:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-C...fdc01f&vxp=mtr


.

[Blued and Painted]

Originally Posted by elefantrider

Anyone know if an original 455 2bbl Rochester 2gc carb would be better for fuel economy,

I got 19.5 MPG @ 60 MPH on a Florida trip with the above carb on a big head 455. It did great burn outs but did run out about 4K rpm's. I only picked up 3 tenths when i switched to a factory stock Q jet. That was a 75 lemans with the A/C on.

[elefantrider]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I used some knock-off tubular control arms on the clone that I got from ebay, look exactly like the GW arms, and the set was under $300 shipped for all 4. Just be sure you pick the right ones. I believe Right Stuff also has them, with a little mark up. I looked them over carefully, welds and all were good and they fit well. No problem with alignment or tracking, car drives well.

Like these for $230:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/64-72-Chevel...9a44f8&vxp=mtr

Or these for $250:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-C...fdc01f&vxp=mtr



.

Those look real nice for the price. I meant to ask about rear control arms as those are the ones that take a beating when towing.