[ho428]

Personally, I wouldn't install these heads in my street car with an intake that didn't look somewhat OEM, nor would I build an intake.
I have no problem fabricating on my race car, but on my street car I want bolt on parts.

If yours and Lynns intakes would swap I'd go with the low rise dual quads since he has the high rise with single-dual plates, and a low rise single.
Then all three intakes are available.

His heads seem to be more race oriented, if you go more street it'd be nice to have a couple of V options to mix and match.
He also has headers for the first gen F.

The Single Plane dual quad 428 gets my vote. That's one sinister looking intake.

[428RA4]

yeah, Don -

The street market would be a larger target, but customers need to understand there will be modifications to the vehicle the motor is being put in.

[dci]

Pontiac made an experimental Tunnel Port Hemi head. IF you want to sell to the race guys, this is what should be built in my opinion.

428RA4, I think this is your dream engine and talk about a limited audience. I'm crazy and a risk taker, but I think that would be way to risky for even me LOL.


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air V Heads !!!!!

[428RA4]

haha -

Well with enough money, no brains and balls the size of a camel, you too can have a wet dream.

...and Tom thinks he is sick in the head.

I'm always looking for the next phase of the insanity so I need to find something to do once I retire.

[428RA4]

ho428 -

The Ford Tunnelport intake looks very similar to the single plane Pontiac intake and is a very doable project. As one can see, well trust me, the Ford intake ports on the center bores are only about 1/8 of an inch difference and can easily be adjusted in the flange.

mike

[tom s]

FWIW,the first intake I would do would be a single 4 that would allow people with RA air cars to use their RA pans!That is the exact reason I never put my dual quad intakes on any car I have put a V engine in.JMO,tom

[428RA4]

Well Tom -

I have in the works as of now a Ram Air pan that will work with the duel quad. Right now, I just have drawings but it will fit with a quad air filter. The upper pan would be removed and a sheet metal oval would be installed. I have worked on this a lot to make it happen. I will be cutting sheet metal prototypes at work this summer.

FYI

[ho428]

Well Mike, I think we know where Don could sell at least two, add in Tom's two and that's four. And that's just in this one thread.
Get busy Don...

Gordon

[JoePapa]

This thread makes me wish I wasn't poor ...

[GTO Dan]

Don -

Might want to give Jon Kaase a call. He has had those Boss9 heads out a while and might be willing to share some insight. I don't think he would see you as market competition, but could be wrong. I think the RAV and Boss 9 heads are similar in that they are an improved relaunch of a "fabled" head for each brand, require unique components (I.e intakes) and have a similar (I think) market size.

He might share the race vs street ratios and other marketing and production experiences.

I don't know the man but might be worth a try.

[Jack Gifford]

And... why do you call the 427 SOHC Pontiac exercise a "tunnel port"?

[tom s]

FYI,I brought a RAV build to the top in the street section that was a Dino mule to test intakes on a V engine.Tom

[428RA4]

Originally Posted by Jack Gifford

And... why do you call the 427 SOHC Pontiac exercise a "tunnel port"?

I believe it was a tunnel port configuration into the combustion chambers from the intake.

[dci]

Tom S, what kind of torque did that engine make and at what RPM?



Jon Kaase is a business colleague and friend of mine. I am using the same foundry as he does for his heads and intakes. I just spoke with him a couple of days ago as a matter of fact. His deal is a little different than mine since his head is a Hemi head, but none the less. Jon is a wealth of information and I'm glad I can call on him when I need to.


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air V Heads !!!!!

[tom s]

Don,I really dont remember,I will look for the dyno sheets.I have so many friggin sheets it might take me sometime to sort them out but will look.Tom

[Tom Vaught]

The original FORD 427 Heads that were copied by Pontiac (with the assistance of George DeLorean), were called "Tunnel Port Heads", Jack. GTOGEORGE was a Ford guy at one time and could probably tell you lots of info about those heads.

They were developed on Ford's Flow bench (that could pull 67" of water test pressure routinely) Not even the "bad boy" Super Flow benches can pull those test pressure numbers 50 years later.

Some Info:

"The Tunnel Port phenomenon was the result of a myriad of dynamics throughout the early ’60s when Ford’s Galaxies waged war on the high banks powered by their Low Riser and Medium Riser 427s. The “Riser” moniker refers to the height of the intake manifold and the intake ports of the various cylinder heads that accompanied them. Things got out of hand in 1963 when Chevrolet’s 409s were replaced with the 427 “Mystery Motor” and then the Hemis made their debut at Daytona in 1964. There was immediately a new standard that found the other OEMs working late nights to catch up because they realized, even then, that the power is in the heads and these were just incredible for the day.

Ford’s next evolutionary approach was dubbed the “Hi-Riser” (pretty original huh?), but they were disallowed after the 1964 season when NASCAR determined that engines needed to fit under a flat hood, which the Hi-Riser’s raised ports and tall intake wouldn’t. Those killers went on to terrorize the drag strips in the bubble-hooded Thunderbolts. Then came the “over the top” 427 Single Overhead Cam (SOHC) “Cammer” in 1965 with a set of great flowing heads utilizing a single overhead cam on each bank on top of the same basic 427 cross-bolted short block that had proven itself as a reliable high rpm champion.

Can you imagine the look on everyone’s face when that thing showed up? Once again, NASCAR wasn’t buying in since it wasn’t a production engine. But Ford hung in there and unleashed the “Cammer” on the Top Fuel, A/FX and Pro Stock ranks where it earned legendary status. Though they still did very well, Ford was quite frustrated to be forced to compete with the old Medium Riser setups in NASCAR, especially since Mopar had been running the race Hemis for years without ever having installed them in a production car! Ford factory support dropped drastically.

It wasn’t long before everyone realized that it’s not good for the fans (ticket sales) or OEMs (car sales) if there isn’t some serious Big Three racing on the big ovals every weekend, so NASCAR and Ford got together one more time to work out a compromise and thus spawned the Tunnel Port.

Ford knew they had a killer intake port design in the SOHC 427. The overhead cam layout allowed for a huge intake port without the physical placement of a pushrod getting in the way. To create the Tunnel Port head in 1966, an expedient solution was to use the basic SOHC port design and then make it work by pressing a metal tube directly through the center of the intake manifold port to encase the intake pushrod. This idea was also used by Pontiac on their Ram Air V race engines and Ford even resurrected the idea years later with the SVO 351 Tunnel Port heads."

Tom Vaught

[428RA4]

Hi Tom -

First of all, thanks for sharing your insight, knowledge and fan fair in this thread. It's always great to hear history to put things in perspective as we revel in the past of a great time in American car history. My whole love of Pontiacs began as a young boy when my mother received a brand new 1968 Firebird from my father as a birthday gift. To say the least, the tradition has stuck with me as I age and to one day eventually pass on my car to my now 10 year old daughter - well, if she can handle the car which, is to be seen some years from now.

Anyways -

From my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong from my limited history knowledge - did the Ford engineers working on the Tunnel Port project transfer to Pontiac in circa 1966 to develop a race motor for said GM division? I'm curious as to what transpired at Pontiac to produce such a motor. I also ponder the reason why Pontiac released an article about the 427 SOHC monster stated in said car performance magazine in 1970 with all the looming government restrictions.

Clearly Micky Thompson was on the cutting edge of race technology with his Hemi head for Pontiacs, and I wonder why GM - Pontiac too so long to come to terms with the RA V and SOHC 427. Any insight would be greatly enlightening, if you care to share. I also thank Don for letting us hi-jack this thread as we meander down memory lane in our minds and embrace what the future could bring in vintage applications through our conversations.

Man, I ponder why they let us drink at work on Fridays....

best
mike ornellas

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 428RA4

From my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong from my limited history knowledge - did the Ford engineers working on the Tunnel Port project transfer to Pontiac in circa 1966 to develop a race motor for said GM division? I'm curious as to what transpired at Pontiac to produce such a motor. I also ponder the reason why Pontiac released an article about the 427 SOHC monster stated in said car performance magazine in 1970 with all the looming government restrictions.
best
mike ornellas

The RA-V engine came AFTER the Ford Tunnel Port Engine was already involved in Trans Am racing. GM had a bunch of smart people in the Pontiac Division so copying at Ford Tunnel Port Engine design and then modifying it for a Traditional Pontiac would not be a big issue. The Pontiac RAV engine was Tom Nell's engine. He was the Godfather of that engine and therefore I do not agree that some Ford Guys transferred to Pontiac to design the engine. Tom controlled the whole engine deal.

Tom Nell had been supporting Arnie Beswick's Pontiac racing efforts for several years.

Tom was a first class auto trans guy too and was involved in the early work on a Turbo 400 Trans. A Very high HP Turbo 400 Transmission. (Think Blown Arnie Beswick engine).

A lot of the RAV parts look close to the Ford Tunnel Port pieces Like the Connecting Rods and the Pistons as well as the modified heads and intake. The bore spacing for the Ford and the Pontiac is very close (with-in .005") of each other so swapping a set of TP heads on a Pontiac block required minimal casting changes to the basic patterns.

Tom Vaught

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

If someone is worried about the loss of 1.5" clearance around the brake booster and wiper motor - and probably the same amount subtracted from carb/hood clearance - couldn't those folks just use Lynn's Aluminum RamV heads ?
His are only raised 5/8".
And $600-700 less.

It reads like these DCI RamV heads will be the ones for the more serious/less worried about factory profiles - and All Out/All In Racers. Sounds like they will be able to exceed any other head currently available.
Thats where the overall sales will mostly be - if that materializes.

On the Intake debate - i think DCI and McC being able to work together as closely as possible will benefit both ventures in the long run.

McC already has 2 single plane/single 4 intakes , and a tunnel ram with interchange tops.
Cams and Headers.
Best bet for all concerned is that McC parts will, or can, interchange with DCI heads.

From what i "think" i "understand" - McC's heads won't accept ANY stock RamV parts such as intake manifolds exhausts guideplates or girdles.
Open to Corrections ...

So where does DCI want to be in that mix ?
A 3rd series of Ram V parts ?
Or same as the virtually unobtainable factory pieces ?
Or in-line with what McC has available for far less cost than new tooling/castings and over-inflated OEM pieces ?

At minimum seems like it would be best if DCI heads will accept McC Intakes and Exhaust.
And either match the guideplate and girdle specs McC stuff would take - or mimic factory specs on those. Matching McC would be best for both futures.
Original 44's are going to go almost dead in the water if we have 2 Aluminum options at less than half their cost.

Let the single plane 2x4 birth itself after the whole deal proves worthwhile.

Where did the water cross-over come from on this McC engine ?
Maybe that is the casting that DCI should invest in - if its not economically / commercialy available.

[tom s]

Lynn I believe made some changes from the first version.I think the original head took a KRE water X over but not a factory V.Tom