[Ray Cox]

Originally Posted by Ron H

Could there be any other potential reasons for this type of damage to occure?
1:Overtightening of the fasteners?
2:Out of balance crank or rotating assembly?
3:Major stress from Power Adder (nitrous) or Detonation?
4:Over RPM'd engine to point of failure?

you would wonder except

1 block was a power adder and 2 were naturally asperated remember there is a 3rd block her that the crank cam compleatly out of and the same 2 mains that are in question here in the photos are the ones that were still attached to the crank # 2 & #4 the caps were still bolted into the webbing! IN ALL OF THESE BLOCKS the photos are in pieces after they dis assembled it but this cracking occured around the bolts so to speak the one that dislodged the crank was recovered 100 yards away with main caps bearings and webbing still bolted onto the crank so why are we talking about the fasteners failing or pulling out? the block broke up around the fasteners it seams


also ron on the rest of your questions these were three different cars 3 different drivers so RPM stress and they all do the same thiing???
the pics of the bearings are posted and though I posted low res pics ther still dosent seam to be any detonation on the bearings

[Ray Cox]

and rod bearings are usually the first to show detonation

we have differnt engine builders here One of which was built by KRE

we have different types of cranks in each motor

we have different cars and drivers

we have different power types

there is one comon denominator between all these photos and stories

"THE MR1 BLOCK"
and that all of the blocks tested 130 range in the brinell test

[Region Warrior]

Shoot Tom, anyone with common sense and have built and or distroyed engines, can see from the pictures, it was not parts, fasteners, or machine work. It was/is the blocks structure/hardness.

Quit nursing these guys.
Some will never believe until they experience it for themselves.

[Tom Vaught]

Mike, I can't possibly know anything about engines because I don't drive.

The time I spent working in college for two speed shops that built very high HP engines means nothing either, forget about the engineering education.

Common Sense, now that is a unique concept.

The engine is trying to tell you that it is not happy.

Tom V.

[Ray Cox]

these are the bearings and internals from block#2 they look about the same as block #1 I posted earlyer

[Pontirag]

With regards to a rather long winded rant a few pages back I appluad the Kauffmans for bringing a product to market. We all agree that the execution of that intro to the market might also be the execution of thier business as well. And yes they made money which is one of the most important incentives to be in this business. They screwed up in not doing thier home work. they screwed up in not addressing the issues uniformily or quickly. They screwed up all around big time and it most likely will result in thier demise.I'm not quite ready to call them crooks yet. Remember...they followed bad advice and or no advice in the past and it got them into this mess and now they are mosy likely following the advice of a lawyer. And most likely it will again be baaaad advice designed to limit the impact of back lash on them. And somebody will have to absorb the loss. We can all bet it will not be the lawyers. I say that if they want to keep thier money that badly and are willing to fight the hobbiest's who were thier loyal customers then it will most likely be the last penny they and their laweys earn in this business. I did state that we the members of this hobby should ruthlessly excomunicate and ostrasize any crooks who would rip off or pimp out our hobby. I hope that they are reading this and at least considering this option. And if they are following the advice of a lawyer and this is not an option they have been advised to consider then either they have a baad lawyer or they have already decided to leave the market and the pontiac family for good. Think of RRE and you get the picture.

But when the fight is over and the smoke has cleared wont sombody who has learned from this consider bringing another engine block to the market. bring it to the market to make money. bring it to expand the market not to compete but to braoden the market and justify others comming to the market with thier products and supporting products. This market has enourmous potential for growth. perhaps not for the kauffmans and the RRE's but for anybody else. But let this be a lesson for us all. pontiac customers are educated and savvy. they have been so since pontiace went high performance. We may be emotional because that is our nature and its our hobby but it is also a warning that we wont eat chit for long. We should close ranks against any pimp who tries to sell us short. But just remember that an expanding market is a sign of a healthy hobbie envirionment so lets get well from this after it is resolved. Kauffman Inc. its a small small world.

[Ron H]

I am not doubting anything. I was just asking of other reasons why these blocks could fail. Another way to eliminate any doubt.
As P Dude said, it's exposed, it's proven, it's done. Nothing more can be gained at this point. Time for the next level.

[Jagtec1]

With all this material/fastener/strength talk...I became more interested and have been having conversations with an older fellow I work with. He is semi-retired...delivers parts for us. He was involved in the fastener and tooling business for many years and has a vast knowledge of many of the very things that have come up in this thread including Brinell, Rockwell, tensile strength, casting and materials, fasteners, etc.

I've learned a lot from this thread, and from him in particular. He gave me some old books he had. One is a Machinery handbook, and the other is a tooling handbook. Each about 1500 pages. He said, "keep them, you have a lot of reading to do!". Very interesting stuff.

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by BILL BOWMAN1

I'd say they are all junk, not like there are 100,000 of them, probably all the same batch. Hopefully everyone has a full refund coming to them!

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, when you say they're all junk, but the evidence so far suggests there were at least two batchs, maybe more. The casting marks differ. It's unlikely they stopped in the middle of a batch to do that. Have you read all the posts? Do you have an MR1 block? I do and I'd like to see this get sorted out. They may well all be junk, regardless of who did the casting or when it was done, but I'd like that determined by evidence and not guesses or opinions.

I agree on the refunds. Each buyer with a bad block deserves a refund.

Jim

[Tom Vaught]

I firmly believe that they MAY NOT be all junk.

I was told that they had three different casting houses do work for them over the 70 block run.

There may very well be some very good blocks still out there.

It would be so nice if the Kauffmans would come forth, identify which blocks came from which source, etc so that a proper evaluation of all of the blocks could be obtained. Right now we have only the bad blocks in the picture. Perhaps there ARE some good ones out there.

The deal is we will never really know until the word get out, the owners are willing to inspect the blocks for hardness and internal damage, and the results are posted.

There is obviously some disagreement in the Kauffman camp on how to do the deal if one of the members has left the group.

Tom V.

[Ray Cox]

smothing new and interesting that I i was just told through some emails

the forged crank was bent .004 from front to back

the Eagle crank in the Naturally asperated motor was also bent exactly .004

some coincidence ..................................

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by Ray Cox

smothing new and interesting that I i was just told through some emails

the forged crank was bent .004 from front to back

the Eagle crank in the Naturally asperated motor was also bent exactly .004

some coincidence ..................................

Ray,

I'm no expert on motors. what would be the significance of that?

Jim

[Tom Vaught]

The blower engine with the forged crank was bent the same amount as the Eagle crank in the NA engine. As the Blower engine had a much stronger forging vs the cast crank in the NA engine I, too, am interested in exactly what the matching .004 deflection is supposed to signify.

Tom V.

[Ray Cox]

my thought is two different motors two different combos, and the exact same amount of bend in each crank? would that "Possibly" say that somthing in the design of the block or the way the block is supporting the crank caused both cranks to distort in the same manner ? I dont know but i thought it was interesting that the dimension was that way thats all

[Half-Inch Stud]

1: yes (improper assembly).
2: no
3: perhaps (read as eventually)
4: no
and 5: defective design and/or material = when an improvement does not improve on the original.
and 6: still no fastener picts (Studs, CapScrew, clearance-to-bottom-out data ) within Mr. Ray Cox's slide shows.

oh the bent cranks get & stay straightened within the oil-filmed bearings. Pretty sure I can move the .004 to ZERO by hand, with about 40 LBs of leaning on the sausage zone while in the Vee-block.

Does that about sum it up//

[Jack Gifford]

Ray Cox- what does "bent .004 inches" mean? .004" TIR on #2 or #3 or #4 while supporting #1 & #5? .008" TIR?
If .004" TIR, I lean toward HIS's view- that many "happy" engines could be torn down and measure that value.

[Ron H]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

1: yes (improper assembly).
2: no
3: perhaps (read as eventually)
4: no
and 5: defective design and/or material = when an improvement does not improve on the original.
and 6: still no fastener picts (Studs, CapScrew, clearance-to-bottom-out data ) within Mr. Ray Cox's slide shows.

oh the bent cranks get & stay straightened within the oil-filmed bearings. Pretty sure I can move the .004 to ZERO by hand, with about 40 LBs of leaning on the sausage zone while in the Vee-block.

Does that about sum it up//

Thanks HIS

["Me"]

I think that the Kauffman group is missing an oppertunity to move to the forefront of the Pontiac performance set.

A friend of mine owns Fly'in Miata, and several years ago they had a problem with some ported heads, an oxide was used that tore up all the motors they were put on. It seems the oxides resisted cleaning but released themselves in the heat of a running motor. Anyway......

Bill Cardell rebuilt or paid to have rebuilt every motor that was affected. Some of these were very expensive stroked race engines, but he paid for them anyway, no bull****.

As a result his business is better than ever, and the Replica head fiasco and Bills reaction is still talked about today as a positive reason to do business with them.

If these blocks are good or bad it makes little difference to me, the problem was not addressed properly and I would be weary of doing business with them. They should have made lemonade......

Larry

[jstackem]

Very true Larry. I think that most here are of the "stand up" kind and would appreciate someone admitting to their mistakes and correcting them. If that were to happen, I assume most would still purchase from said company. However, they chose the other fork in the road. I hope it doesn't lead them off the cliff, but if it does, they deserve it.

[Rob]

Amazing how much I agree with HIS.

I know of two IAI splayed cap blocks with similar main saddle separation.

While I still hold out that the intended material composition of a MR-1 one block material can pass the 35,000psi tensile strength test, the latest web page indicating a J-431 G3500 material as the base formula lands brinell testing numbers and my confidence in the quality of the material delivered at odds(not to mention the broken block pictures).

I suspect the truth won't be simple.

-Rob

WWW.ICTCengines.com