[Ray Cox]

Originally Posted by Pontirag

Lets take a moment and reflect on whats going on and the implications for the vendor the customer and the hobby as a whole. while this is a serious problem as it no doubt IS, the greater implications for the hobby are very serious. I know others have begun to allude to this but lets not forget one thing. An important thing. The Kauffmans stepped up to the plate with the very best intentions. They provided what was thought to be a spectacular product. Three or four years ago we had nothing. Until a few months ago we had two vendors selling aluminum and cast iron aftermarket blocks. And furthermore what an increadable assortment of heads to complement and enhance the blocks on the market. We're all just a little too vishouse including my self who does not even have a dog in this fight.
The Kauffmans are already taking a pretty big hit. And bigger ones are comming just in terms of trying to unload the rest of there stock even if its good. Later, when it comes time to resolve the looming issue of recalls and law suits the will take an enourmous hit. and what ever the outcome no matter how favourable and generous to the victims, A vendor who tried with what we must all agree on is the truly best intentions will be hit so very hard they may not recover. So while we sharpen our tongues and our knives lets remember that it happend to the best of us.
The Kauffmans brought good service and good parts to the market in every other respect. Had this block deal gone well rather than bad we can only imagine what other exciting products they might have developed. Then for a moment think what other vendors might have developed to support this batch of blocks or the next batch. Just look at the Big block chevy industry and supporting industry. Granted the pontiac market is smaller but the level of support we all benifit from and are amazed by was not even possible just a few short years ago.
Lets try to remember that these quality issues were out of they control. We dont know if the poor quality issues were on them or were they the victims like us. Fair enough they screwed up where they had control but we dont know the whole truth yet. Let this be a warning to other vendors who enter a market without complete knowlege or try to pass on the cost to the customer, weather its bad customer service. rip off shipping cost's or just a chitty product. we as the customers need to close ranks against creeps who would exploit or pimp out this hobby but lets not burn one of our own at the stake. There is an amazing resource of technical knowlege and support that we all have demonstrated that while currently is used for a less agreeable situation could it be used for a more positive and productive end in the future.
The kauffmans do have several possitive things going for them. withe every other regard to manufacturing and marketing this block they have all the nessessarry infrastructure in place. All they (and we) need is a quality casting and a reputable machine shop. We all know now what is needed and who to go to to get a good casting job done . We certainly know what spec to demand in terms of casting material. It certainly seems that there are competant machinists out there who are willing to do accurate work correctly.
We can certainly thank GOD that there were only 70(?) of these blocks made and they are not all bad it seems so far. So lets learn from this and maybe support each other in an effort to recover regroup and learn from our mistakes. There certainly and clearly is a market and a demand for this product and its healthy for the pontiac market in general and for ALL of US. So lets not draw a quarter the Kauffmans. because if one of us dies the a little of all of us dies too. How ever we also need to be absolutly ruthless with anybody who would exploit or pimp out our very special market. I dont think this is the case with the Kauffmans. This pontiac industry can recover and rebound from this set back. we need more block manufacturers. I know that I was mearly one of several people who while hoarding 428s and 455s for that rainy day now cant give them away (figuratively speaking). I looked very carefully at the Kauffman block up at pontiac heaven and had desided at that time to buy an aftermarket block. Who's block I had not desided but I was willing to spend the money. So the market is there and it was expanding. No doubt that there would be another batch maybe with fewer defects like the evolution of the IA I's to the IA II's. Lets pool our Knowlege and resources to build a better block. The market is there and we are all now a little bit wiser and better for what has happend.

I'm shopping around for a set of newly manufactured Mickey Thompson Hemi heads wonder if there's enough demand for them. If so count me in for at least three sets.

so your saying we should all shut up let more people buy these since kauffman was continuing to sell them untill this post hit.
and let the people that already own them run them till they figure it out for them selves when the crank comes out the bottom and they total ther car?
Ill hve to think for a moment I never looked at it from that perspective!

[Ray Cox]

John is probably refering to the pics a few pages back if I confused someone Im sorry I only put those up because of the referances to the crank

at the moment I have put up 2 different MR1 blocks and 1 stock block

[punisher#1]

the kaufmans intentions was to make money when they saw a demand for heads and blocks. if their intention was to help the pontiac "community" go faster and further they would have been answering my questions as to why my highports would not flow over 400cfm without major port relocation and about a gallon of epoxy and they would have been trying to help steve solve his rear main seal problem instead of denying that there was a problem even after we sent them the cap to look at.

[Ray Cox]

John if Kre wants this thread to stop they need to speak up I will stop posting if they agree to notify all Mr1 owners that there is a "POTENTIAL" for breakage and to check out there block they dont have to admit to anything just notify the people so thy can check for them selves

[wrench]

Originally Posted by Ray Cox

so your saying we should all shut up let more people buy these since kauffman was continuing to sell them untill this post hit.
and let the people that already own them run them till they figure it out for them selves when the crank comes out the bottom and they total ther car?
Ill hve to think for a moment I never looked at it from that perspective!

Nobody is saying that. There is nothing wrong with this thread pointing out problems with a product and warning other people of a dangerous situation. The accusations of them purposely building a dangerous block to make more money or even accusing them of knowing beforehand that the blocks were so dangerous is the problem. I doubt they where making much money on this deal even if the project was successful. I remember talking to Dick Duclow at his shop about how much $ he had to put up to bring us the IA1. If they found someone to cast the blocks out of Playdoh they might not break even.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Pontirag

Lets take a moment and reflect on whats going on and the implications for the vendor the customer and the hobby as a whole. while this is a serious problem as it no doubt IS, the greater implications for the hobby are very serious. I know others have begun to allude to this but lets not forget one thing. An important thing. The Kauffmans stepped up to the plate with the very best intentions. They provided what was thought to be a spectacular product. Three or four years ago we had nothing. Until a few months ago we had two vendors selling aluminum and cast iron aftermarket blocks. And furthermore what an increadable assortment of heads to complement and enhance the blocks on the market. We're all just a little too vishouse including my self who does not even have a dog in this fight.
The Kauffmans are already taking a pretty big hit. And bigger ones are comming just in terms of trying to unload the rest of there stock even if its good. Later, when it comes time to resolve the looming issue of recalls and law suits the will take an enourmous hit. and what ever the outcome no matter how favourable and generous to the victims, A vendor who tried with what we must all agree on is the truly best intentions will be hit so very hard they may not recover. So while we sharpen our tongues and our knives lets remember that it happend to the best of us.
The Kauffmans brought good service and good parts to the market in every other respect. Had this block deal gone well rather than bad we can only imagine what other exciting products they might have developed. Then for a moment think what other vendors might have developed to support this batch of blocks or the next batch. Just look at the Big block chevy industry and supporting industry. Granted the pontiac market is smaller but the level of support we all benifit from and are amazed by was not even possible just a few short years ago.
Lets try to remember that these quality issues were out of they control. We dont know if the poor quality issues were on them or were they the victims like us. Fair enough they screwed up where they had control but we dont know the whole truth yet. Let this be a warning to other vendors who enter a market without complete knowlege or try to pass on the cost to the customer, weather its bad customer service. rip off shipping cost's or just a chitty product. we as the customers need to close ranks against creeps who would exploit or pimp out this hobby but lets not burn one of our own at the stake. There is an amazing resource of technical knowlege and support that we all have demonstrated that while currently is used for a less agreeable situation could it be used for a more positive and productive end in the future.
The kauffmans do have several possitive things going for them. withe every other regard to manufacturing and marketing this block they have all the nessessarry infrastructure in place. All they (and we) need is a quality casting and a reputable machine shop. We all know now what is needed and who to go to to get a good casting job done . We certainly know what spec to demand in terms of casting material. It certainly seems that there are competant machinists out there who are willing to do accurate work correctly.
We can certainly thank GOD that there were only 70(?) of these blocks made and they are not all bad it seems so far. So lets learn from this and maybe support each other in an effort to recover regroup and learn from our mistakes. There certainly and clearly is a market and a demand for this product and its healthy for the pontiac market in general and for ALL of US. So lets not draw a quarter the Kauffmans. because if one of us dies the a little of all of us dies too. How ever we also need to be absolutly ruthless with anybody who would exploit or pimp out our very special market. I dont think this is the case with the Kauffmans. This pontiac industry can recover and rebound from this set back. we need more block manufacturers. I know that I was mearly one of several people who while hoarding 428s and 455s for that rainy day now cant give them away (figuratively speaking). I looked very carefully at the Kauffman block up at pontiac heaven and had desided at that time to buy an aftermarket block. Who's block I had not desided but I was willing to spend the money. So the market is there and it was expanding. No doubt that there would be another batch maybe with fewer defects like the evolution of the IA I's to the IA II's. Lets pool our Knowlege and resources to build a better block. The market is there and we are all now a little bit wiser and better for what has happend.

I'm shopping around for a set of newly manufactured Mickey Thompson Hemi heads wonder if there's enough demand for them. If so count me in for at least three sets.

Apparently you haven't had to deal with them on a downside issue. Easy to look from the outside in.
And it's easy to be happy and smile when doing business and selling. Yes people do and are doing things for the betterment of the hobby, but it's also about making money. Ask any Pontiac Business out their. Come on now, let's use common sense.

It's the way you handle Issues that shows a true Businessman.

Why don't you call those people directly involved with Products that had issues and ask them how it was resolved or handled over the years.
I'm sure they would be more then willing to give you their numbers in a PM. ;)

It's all about atitude. Dude.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Lucky for those that purshased the K&M MR-1A...A = the ALUMINUM option.

[Ray Cox]

Originally Posted by wrench

Nobody is saying that. There is nothing wrong with this thread pointing out problems with a product and warning other people of a dangerous situation. The accusations of them purposely building a dangerous block to make more money or even accusing them of knowing beforehand that the blocks were so dangerous is the problem. I doubt they where making much money on this deal even if the project was successful. I remember talking to Dick Duclow at his shop about how much $ he had to put up to bring us the IA1. If they found someone to cast the blocks out of Playdoh they might not break even.

Maybe part of the problem here is I am seeing things I cant post yet like the emails from kaufmann to some of there customers denying that there is a problem hopefully I can post it soon so you can draw your own conclusions but so far kaufmans and a few others "Apear to be denying there is a problem" yet we have 6-8 blocks that tested soft 3 that have destroyed them selves and several with rear seal issues.

how long has this thread been up? has any owner of an MR1 had a test that didnt come up negative? not that I know of if they have I would think they would post the results to help Kaufmans

has anyone been on here and said Kaufman is taking care of my problem?

has anyone been told by Kaufman we are sorry we wish we could fix it but cant? were to small of a company

instead Im seeing email denying that there is even a problem

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Ray Cox

John if Kre wants this thread to stop they need to speak up I will stop posting if they agree to notify all Mr1 owners that there is a "POTENTIAL" for breakage and to check out there block they dont have to admit to anything just notify the people so thy can check for them selves

Ray, it's more then that. D.I. Posted about his block issues and the way they wouldn't take responsibility for it. People are missing the point.

You have dozens of purchasers out there that are out BIG bucks and told Go away.

Now having to spend another $3,000 on the IA 2 blocks to finish their projects. I do agree on the safety factor.

We are talking over $6,000.00 dollars each person has now spent on just the block deal.

That's why Drunkin Injun posted this thread to begin with. The other issues just added to the equasion. He started this thread back on 10/18/06 wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy After he couldn't reach a compromise with them.

And if I'm not mistaken................. Not one party has been contacted in a positive manner to help resolve their issues, Am I right?????

I'm sure if those posting, let's give em a break, had MR-1 blocks and can't contact or were not contacted by K & M, or told Oh well, and with a sh*tpot full of parts ready to go, the story would be different.

[GTO Dan]

Let be real. Aren't all businesses in it make money (unless they are a not-for-profit type charity organization)?

Competition (more choices for the consumer) is a core principle of our free market society. Attacking those that try to bring products to market is counter productive. Why does it get personal? K&M with the MR-1, PPR with the Hurricane intake, BOP and their intake...same lynch mob mentality.

The market ultimately dictates what happens...product does it perform as it should - people won't buy...poor customer service - people won't patronize...simple.

Punisher - if a High Port head at that spec and price dosen't meet your need then buy another or bring one to market if you think you can make money on it. Perhaps consumers looking for that spec at that price point will buy a High Port.

Being able to share information is powerful tool and I as I said before I appreciate it. It helps us make better choices and alerts those that need alerting. Consumer Reports (a not for profit by the way) has build a huge name and reputation on this.

Time, the market and perhaps ultimately the legal system will determine the final disposition of this.

It's business...don't make it personal. As soon as we hear speculation that an inferior product is knowingly being marketed then it is not only a business matter, potentially becomes criminal.

[GTO Dan]

Also...

Ray you take alot of heat on this board yet you consistently personally step up and help others. This situation and how you helped the Davis family immediately come to mind.

Thanks for you efforts.

[GTO Dan]

Dude - agreed.

So if that is the case then it is time for legal action and formal proceeding by those impacted.

Trying to "shame" a business into action doesn't always work.

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by GTO Dan

Let be real. Aren't all businesses in it make money (unless they are a not-for-profit type charity organization)?

The market ultimately dictates what happens...product does it perform as it should - people won't buy...poor customer service - people won't patronize...simple.

You're missing another point about the American concept of free market: "Suitability for use". If you say your product meets a particular specification (hardness, HP level, composition of alloy), and the product DOES NOT meet this specification, you have a big legal problem if you sell them. It is easy to test all of the blocks ever made for several of these key specifications to determine if they meet or do not meet standards as advertized. It is black and white, right or wrong. In any case, you don't just get to say "F#@k it, let the market figure it out".

To the point that the vendors have done a good job so far - I am reminded of an old saying from my days in the service: One "aw sh!t" erases ALL prior "attaboys".

[Chris Roach]

50 pages!

All the “this is how it should have been done” is getting old. It’s time to take the needle of the broken record! The most useful posts of this topic in 50 pages has been the facts posted by the owners of the blocks and Rays pictures. We all know that KRE F’d up, but I’d like see more facts on the topic at hand and the results as they unfold. Not all the backyard expertise and legal advise that has flooded this post.

JMO!

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by GTO Dan

Dude - agreed.

So if that is the case then it is time for legal action and formal proceeding by those impacted.

Trying to "shame" a business into action doesn't always work.

I guess seeing as it's only under a month since this post began. But still longer with others that had issues. Parties involved are Still waitng for return corespondance or phone calls.

But If no one steps up pursues this issue as far as recourse, then who makes out?

I just feel for the people that do have these issues and deal with me. I hear the other side as far as what they are doing and the no response from the seller, or a 'Mr Fix it' solution that in reality won't last down the road.

Then you have the Weak Casting issues that has caused considerable damage to previous owners now coming forward?
How much does a 10 second plus race car cost one to build in blood sweat and tears. :(

I'm done. Hope this get's resolved for all concerned. If ya need any builders advise, no matter what brand. Call. We don't ignore issues and offer FREE advise From experience all the time.

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by Chris Roach

50 pages!

All the “this is how it should have been done” is getting old. It’s time to take the needle of the broken record! The most useful posts of this topic in 50 pages has been the facts posted by the owners of the blocks and Rays pictures. We all know that KRE F’d up, but I’d like see more facts on the topic at hand and the results as they unfold. Not all the backyard expertise and legal advise that has flooded this post.

JMO!

Not being argumentative, but what other facts are you looking for? Several blocks have had failures and don't appear to meet basic specifications; the vendors aren't doing anything to satisfy their customers... Seems to me until a bunch of people come back with test results that their blocks are WITHIN spec, or we get a response from the vendors, the only thing left for us (as a community) is to discuss this. Should we start a "facts only" thread, or just keep quiet and let the unsuspecting take their chances?

I think the thread is very useful.

[johnta1]

When I posted that comment about the stock blocks, Ray hadn't uploaded the new MR-1 block pics.
They were of a stock block/crank by a car.

[johnta1]

Facts would be good, innuendo no.

[Chris Roach]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

Not being argumentative, but what other facts are you looking for? Several blocks have had failures and don't appear to meet basic specifications; the vendors aren't doing anything to satisfy their customers... Seems to me until a bunch of people come back with test results that their blocks are WITHIN spec, or we get a response from the vendors, the only thing left for us (as a community) is to discuss this. Should we start a "facts only" thread, or just keep quiet and let the unsuspecting take their chances?

I think the thread is very useful.

455,

I'm more interested in the findings of the 70 or so bocks that are out there. How will OMT's block fair on inspection as well as the others (will they be the same as the pictures Ray has posted?). I'm interested in when or if KRE will respond or if they will fade away as their credibility is fading away. I read through these pages and read the same thing over and over, just re-worded. When I stop by and check this post, I skim through each post looking for responses on the topic at hand and most do not relate. It seems as everyone becomes an expert on someone else’s misfortune without a lick of experience themselves. Just trying to weed through this garden of info, which in my opinion has become heavy with weeds.

Again, this just my opinion…..Post on! :beerchug:

And yes, my post here is a weed! :doh:

[Ray Cox]

weather this thread is useful or not probably depends on if you are a KRE fan or not and if you have there products.

Jim Talor has now said he will look at his motor out of concern but at first he was trying to get by with it for a while but with the info that soctt roberts and others have brought forward he now feels he has to look at his motor

the Pics of block #2 took a few extra days to post because the owner of the block was reluctant to take apart his perfectly fine running motor that ran fine at the track a few weeks ago but on monday they started it up one last time to move it to the other side of the garage and tear it down thie posted pics are what he found. but he didnt think he had a problem and was told so many things by Steve kauffman in person he had a hard time believing this could be true I can tell you he beilieves it now!

it amazes me how you can post somthing to try to save someone else the grief that you went through and you get abunch of flack for doing it if I complain about gas prices nobody says anything if I complain about paying too much for an intake that dosent do what it says so that someone else dosent make the same mistake I get slammed

I sold a house last year and the seller pulled some funny bs on the contract and kept the appliances so the deal wasent going to close and my buyer was already packed and needed a place to live so to make the deal work the 2,500 for apliances came out of my commission and I made nothing. was it my falt NO did I eat it to keep the customer happy and not have it get out to future customers Yes.

why should we not complain about a vender not giving us what they advertise or supporting the product when we have a problem with it ? everyone knows about the problems with the BOP belt stuff and there intake but were not supose to talk about it we have to just let someone else get hurt?????? we all know how manny people have been burned by Doug at crank Shaft specialties but I get slammed for trying to warn others??????
the only person that it seams ok to talk about is BF the funny part is I spent days on the phone with him and had all but ordered a motor and if it werent for a post I saw some where I would have bought from him also
so I will continue to say what I see when I see it like it or not

one more thing in my rant and then we can post some more pics with all of this why hasent anyone thanked All pontiac for bailing dick out and bringing us a good block ?? they made improvements consistantly they replaced any that had problems even if minor as any company should do "Every company is going to have a bad batch or a bad part" but all pontiac seams to take care of it . Steve C and I had words last year because I was sticking up for all pontiac Im sure he bielived that I was just being a jerk and doing it to get a good deal. and I apologize to him for the things I said but now maybe he can see why I was so supportive of them. when I broke rods in there product it stayed together it was (IS) a great piece and I needed to speak up and say that
How manny people are out there saying thank you to MSD for giving us a distributer? or edlbrock for a head? dosent anyone remember when there wasent a head how about Rob for his part in the commetic gaskets?
this section is to point out the good and bad of what venders have done for us and to HELP others make a choice about weather to buy the product or not

Ill stay on this block thing till I think everyone who owns one knows then they can decide if they want to do somthing about it I have helped put totaled cars in trailers at the race track and seen drivers like todd goodwin taken to the hospital the way the mains in this block look I think anyone running this block is taking a huge risk so I want to atleast makke sure they know the risk is there. I ASKED MY BEST FRIEND A YEAR AGO AS HE WAS FINISHING HIS CAR WHY HE BOUGHT A HARLEY and gave him a hard time for buing it he is no longer here nor is the bike. 2 peolpe that I see at the track on a regular basis have torn down there block and these are ther pics so if I made someone mad posting this or talking about KRE Im sorry it wasent my Job to do it but since KRE was MIA when it comes to the MR1 I felt I had too

and Im glad Scott Roberts and some others spoke up so that we new the problem was even here!