[sdx455]

another patch ,see the hole someone cut through the trunk divider , look back at the picture with the tailpanel installed . you can see the coloration differation .Thats where I had someone cut that piece out from donor and I patched it in ..

[70RamAirIIITA]

SDX, good call on not welding in those 1/4's before getting the bumper, that would suck to have to rip them back out after welding them in and finding out they're not aligned. What are you using to strip the doors with?

Hey, don't knock that old Goat, it will be well worth it when you're finished with her. I think by the time you're done you will have some emotional attachment to her; it's hard not to after putting in all of that time and work. Besides that, she looks like an original 4-speed car, way more cooler than an automatic. Like you said, this is all good practice while waiting to find your Judge barn find (like finding a needle in a haystack?). I say go for the Vortek blower, that way you don't have to drop big $$$ on the roundports. You'll still be dropping some good money for the blower set up but you'll be making a lot more HP.

Thanks for the ultimategto site, I'll take a look at it after I've gone through 57rustbucket's site. I think I've come across the Hot Rod mag restoration disc on their site before; from what I could tell the discs look pretty good. If the offer still stands on the resto disc, let me know and I'll mail you some blank CD's to burn and some money for the postage for your trouble. The way I look at it, you can never have enough reference material.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by 70RamAirIIITA

Greg, did you have to do any do-overs on your Goat? I think what's already been stated in this thread can't be said enough - measure once, measure twice, measure three times, then measure again. I think the main thing to remember is to be patient and don't try to rush it.

Yeah, the only one I can recall is the back glass channel. Sometimes you don't really want to dig into an area because you're afraid of what you might find.
I had that area looking good and it was primed and ready to drop the glass back in... but I knew deep down that there was very, VERY thin metal all along both sides that I had kinda patched up...I could tell when I put the reveal molding studs in...Finally, I went ahead and cut it all out and replaced it with solid metal.
The only other issue is that as I go along with this project, my welding skills are getting better. I now know that some of my very first welds are not as good as they could be...so I probably should go back and do a couple of them all over again...but by God I want to drive this thing soon.
If it lasts 7 or 8 years and needs redoing in some spots...so be it...
I'll live with that and do it better next time.

[70RamAirIIITA]

I can see how you might be afraid to start digging around because you don't know what you'll find; it sounds like your guilty conscience got the better of you on the back glass channel. I know I'd be the same way; if I'm going to be doing all of this work, I know I'd want to get the car back together and drive it ASAP, but then again it would be weighing on my conscience knowing that I left something unfinished that should have been taken care of. It sounds like for the most part you didn't have many "do-overs", which says a lot about the quality of your workmanship.

I can totally understand about weld quailty as well; I have yet to make my first weld - ever. I was thinking about that last night, that it would be better to spend a couple of weeks practicing on scrap sheet metal to get my welds decent before attempting to weld in the panels on the likes of a rare car. My dad helped me weld in (actually he did all the welding) the upper part of a radiator support for a '67 Mustang I had years ago. He brought home a MIG welder from work; it looked pretty easy but I know it's one thing to watch, another to actually do it. At this point I don't know what I'll be welding first, the trunk pan, 1/4's or wheel wells. I'm waiting until I get the trunk pan out so I can take a look at the shape of the 1/4's and wheel wells; I know the 1/4's will need patching at the very least. I definetly feel it would be better to start welding with the trunk pan or wheel wells, panels that aren't as noticeable as the welds on a 1/4 would be. Did you have any problems with the sheetmetal warping? How far away are you from driving your GTO?

[mike nixon]

a good rule of thumb on restoring a car is as follows.

the more you dig the more you find, the more you find the more you dig. it really doesn't end until you've got a pile of parts and the wth did i just do thought.


sheetmetal warps the only way around that is to weld in short sections and float around the panel while attaching it. don't be afraid of weld penetration but when the heats up weld in shorter beads. i've got several #" wide sections of copper in different lengths and shapes that i clamp on the back of the panel i'm welding on as heat sinks. it speeds up the cooling times and reduces warpage. it also allows holes to be filled easier.

welding's not rocket science but it does take skill.

mike

[Greg Reid]

I know Mike has a lot more experience than I do and from what I've learned from my own experience, he's telling you the truth in the above post.
At first I wanted to do all my welds as butt welds....Now my opinion is that a good solid flange weld is far better than a porous butt weld...And far less time consuming.
I also learned that the more time you spend cutting and fitting, the less time, gas and wire you'll spend welding.
I still like a butt weld but they are very tricky unless you've got some very healthy metal on both sides and on the inside/outside surfaces.
Definitely do spend plenty of time practicing on scrap metal of the same thickness/gauge as the sheetmetal on your car.
I think the trickiest part of welding is learning to feel and hear the weld properly. That's the part that only lots of welding can really teach you in my opinion.

[70RamAirIIITA]

I'd really like to take a class on welding but I just don't have the time, so I read a lot of body work books...

Is flange welding better than butt welding? I've read that for butt welds the gaps between the metal should't be any more than 1/32nd of an inch. That's pretty precise trimming and fitting; it sounds very time consuming. Do the same principles apply to flange welding or can you have larger gaps since aren't you in essance filling in the gaps between the two pieces? I've also read that flange welding doesn't leave panels as flat as butt welding - ?

I've also read that when first welding up a piece, you make your first tack in on one end, then one on the opposite end, then in the middle, and work your way in, alternating from side to side from the outsides in. This same book also said by doing this you can eventually have a constant bead of spot welds that will look like a continuous weld bead. Can you tell I do a lot of reading?

Thoughts?

[Greg Reid]

Flange welding is a lot easier than butt welding. You can make it just as flat. That's the purpose of the flange tool. It crimps the edge of the metal so that it will lie under the piece you're welding to. They then wind up equal heights in cross section. you only have a small seam to fill.
Since the edge of one piece is lying on top of the flanged piece, you're effectively welding metal that is double the thickness of a single piece that you'd be welding to if you were butt welding. To take advantage of the double thickness, when flange welding, you really want the two pieces flat against each other with no gap. Otherwise, the edge of the top piece can tend to get blown away a bit. Kinda like butt welding.
All this is just my theorizing based on my experience.

Whoever wrote that book knows a lot more than I ever will....Heck, they wrote a book.

[3 Chiefs]

If you like to read, this is for you.
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showt...hin+sheetmetal
This man is one of the best. His name is Randy Ferguson. He builds complete car bodies from flat sheetmetal. Mostly Willys bodies but he can do it all. He is a master of metal shaping. I have had the pleasure of meeting him last fall and he is one to listen to.
In the particular thread I have pointed you to he is mig welding a body panel. Now when he got started he always used a mig welder and he also finishes his weld, meaning no body filler at all. He says if anyone tells you that you can not finish a mig weld, don't listen to them. As I was saying, in the beginning of his career he mig welded all seams but as he got better and bought more tools he switched to tig welding panels. However the link I posted is about butt welding with mig.
Now some things for you to consider.
When exterior sheetmetal is lap welded, you will need plastic filler. Filler always leaves a chance for a future problem and paint failure.
Also when exterior sheetmetal is lap welded you end up with two layers of metal on the lap weld, right? You have filler over the lap joint and a pretty and expensive paint job over that. You take your nice old car out on a hot day and the sheetmetal will get hot too. On a small scale your sheetmetal will expand and contract. In the lap joint the metal is twice as thick and will expand and contract at a different rate starting the future paint and filler problems mentioned earlier.
I am in favor of lap or flange welding a floor or trunk if you want to but I think exterior sheetmetal should be butt welded. One thing to watch for if you butt weld is pin holes. When you are finished welding turn out the lights in your shop and have someone hold a light on the back of the weld while you look for pin holes in the bead. Mark them and move on till the entire bead is checked. Re weld all pin holes if you have any. Do not count on any paint or filler to seal a pin hole. A pin hole will also lead to early paint failure. Read the above link. The knowledge is worth the time.
Best of luck to you however you chose to repair your car.
Paul

[70RamAirIIITA]

Paul, thank you so much for your input and for the link to the metalmeet.com site. The site wouldn't let me read the thread when I clicked on the link so I just registered. I started reading the first few entries of the thread and this is exactly the kind of information I've been looking for; I highly recommend that anyone who needs to learn more about welding sheetmetal go to this site. Even though I'm not even close to starting to weld on the TA, I'll be scouring the threads in this site, purchasing a welder and doing a lot of practicing on scrap. Thank you so much again for your contribution!
Randy

[3 Chiefs]

Great Randy. I am happy to help. I always stay logged in on metalmeet so I forgot that you would have to register. The site is huge with lots of category's. Take your time and you will find out who the really talented folks are. One other good thing about metalmeet is the regional and international meets. There are many members from your part of the country and I am sure some meets planned. Do not hesitate to go to these meets. Its a bunch of people sharing skills and eager to teach others. You will be welcomed from the beginning. You don't have to know anyone but you will soon be making new friends. Because these people meet at several places around the world, several times a year, there is a respect on the metalmeet forums. Sometimes people get rude with others on forums because they never actually come face to face. At metalmeet, they do come face to face. I have been to the international meet in Oblong Illinois and I can't wait to go again. Last year I was introduced to the english wheel. I made a motorcycle fender even though I don't own a motorcycle. I took a class on mig welding sheetmetal. I took a class on using a Pullmax machine. There were some painting demos and a lot of other stuff too. Read a little then introduce yourself.
Paul

[Greg Reid]

As clarification, I did not intend to imply that lap welding was just as good as butt welding...in fact, I meant to imply that butt welding was better...that's why I wanted to do it exclusively in the beginning. What I learned was that it's very difficult to do without a lot of holes being blown unless you're working with some really good metal.
It's the only reason I prefer flange welding now. My skill level is simply not up to the task on a consistent basis.
Maybe with more years of experience but I'd like to drive my car before this decade is out.

[mike nixon]

butt welding, when done right, is easier to finish out. flange welding is stronger when done correctly [welded on both sides].

all the oem seams are all flange spot welded.

i'm not a fan of spot welding as it allows moisture to penetrate the seam.

mike

[sdx455]

I was saying ten year project , but realize I am getting older almost 50 so am on the fast track maybe 3-5 depending if I farm some work out ...Tried striping doors with airplane stripper paint was so hard woulnt penatrate ,did alot of it with those longer lasting sandpapaer wheels 41/2 inch grinder .. to much dust went back to stripper. put on heavy leave alone 20 min clean then do again . gets down to original primer which stripper wont remove . then use one of those ,they look like heavy duty scotchbrite paint stripper pads on the grinder , they dont leave the gouges sand paper does . Harbor freight ,,,, went through 4 knotted wire brushes cleaning inner and outer firewall this weekend . I was burning them up in about an hr . also bought a 40lb sandblaster this weekend .was excited but could not get it to work with the black slag from northern tool ,also tried med. sand kept clogging up . at the tip and the bottom valve on tank .. going for fine sand today . I am worried about rust I cant get to .inside frnt /rear window pillars .plan to run some type flexible shaft wire brush in there then spray it with phoshphic acid about all I can do

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by sdx455

I was saying ten year project , but realize I am getting older almost 50 so am on the fast track maybe 3-5 depending if I farm some work out ...Tried striping doors with airplane stripper paint was so hard woulnt penatrate ,did alot of it with those longer lasting sandpapaer wheels 41/2 inch grinder .. to much dust went back to stripper. put on heavy leave alone 20 min clean then do again . gets down to original primer which stripper wont remove . then use one of those ,they look like heavy duty scotchbrite paint stripper pads on the grinder , they dont leave the gouges sand paper does . Harbor freight ,,,, went through 4 knotted wire brushes cleaning inner and outer firewall this weekend . I was burning them up in about an hr . also bought a 40lb sandblaster this weekend .was excited but could not get it to work with the black slag from northern tool ,also tried med. sand kept clogging up . at the tip and the bottom valve on tank .. going for fine sand today . I am worried about rust I cant get to .inside frnt /rear window pillars .plan to run some type flexible shaft wire brush in there then spray it with phoshphic acid about all I can do

You and me are about the same age. I'll be five-oh this year.
That sandblaster is clogging because of condensation. Get rid of the condensation and you can use the sand you want.
I also went a lot of different routes trying to strip my car down. There were 7 layers on mine including primers and sealer for two different paint jobs plus the original.
The electric grinder with aggressive paper was what worked best for me to get it down to one or two layers and the wire cup is what I liked best for the final coats and original primer. Bare metal was nice after the wire brush. No gouges or scratches.

[70RamAirIIITA]

Originally Posted by 3 Chiefs

Great Randy. I am happy to help. I always stay logged in on metalmeet so I forgot that you would have to register. The site is huge with lots of category's. Take your time and you will find out who the really talented folks are. One other good thing about metalmeet is the regional and international meets. There are many members from your part of the country and I am sure some meets planned. Do not hesitate to go to these meets. Its a bunch of people sharing skills and eager to teach others. You will be welcomed from the beginning. You don't have to know anyone but you will soon be making new friends. Because these people meet at several places around the world, several times a year, there is a respect on the metalmeet forums. Sometimes people get rude with others on forums because they never actually come face to face. At metalmeet, they do come face to face. I have been to the international meet in Oblong Illinois and I can't wait to go again. Last year I was introduced to the english wheel. I made a motorcycle fender even though I don't own a motorcycle. I took a class on mig welding sheetmetal. I took a class on using a Pullmax machine. There were some painting demos and a lot of other stuff too. Read a little then introduce yourself.
Paul

Paul, thank you for the information on metalmeet, I'm really excited to start reading the threads and also about looking into going to one of the upcoming meets in my area. When taking on a project of this magnitude, I feel I need to learn as much as I can about all aspects of the restoration process. I know the "easy" part is drilling out the spot welds and cutting away all of the rusted sheetmetal; it's one thing to cut it out but quite another to get the panels lined up and welded in. Randy Ferguson looks like he's a master of his trade and I'm sure there are many others who have mastered various processes who are on the site as well. The meets sound like a blast, it sounds like you met some new friends, learned some new things and really enjoyed yourself. How much do they charge for the classes? I would love to take the class on mig welding sheetmetal. How did you like working with the English wheel? The next thing you know, you'll be building an entire street rod using nothing more that sheet metal, an English wheel and a welder! I bet that motorcycle fender is something to be proud of!
Randy

As clarification, I did not intend to imply that lap welding was just as good as butt welding...in fact, I meant to imply that butt welding was better...that's why I wanted to do it exclusively in the beginning. What I learned was that it's very difficult to do without a lot of holes being blown unless you're working with some really good metal.
It's the only reason I prefer flange welding now. My skill level is simply not up to the task on a consistent basis.
Maybe with more years of experience but I'd like to drive my car before this decade is out.

Greg, I think the bottom line is to do what works best for you; if you get your car finished sooner using the appropriate methods, so be it. When everything's covered with paint, you'll be the only one who knows how the repairs were done (well, you and about 5,000 of your closest friends on PY )

butt welding, when done right, is easier to finish out. flange welding is stronger when done correctly [welded on both sides].

all the oem seams are all flange spot welded.

i'm not a fan of spot welding as it allows moisture to penetrate the seam.

mike

Mike, even using seam sealer on the areas that are spot welded will allow moisture to penetrate the seam?

I was saying ten year project , but realize I am getting older almost 50 so am on the fast track maybe 3-5 depending if I farm some work out ...Tried striping doors with airplane stripper paint was so hard woulnt penatrate ,did alot of it with those longer lasting sandpapaer wheels 41/2 inch grinder .. to much dust went back to stripper. put on heavy leave alone 20 min clean then do again . gets down to original primer which stripper wont remove . then use one of those ,they look like heavy duty scotchbrite paint stripper pads on the grinder , they dont leave the gouges sand paper does . Harbor freight ,,,, went through 4 knotted wire brushes cleaning inner and outer firewall this weekend . I was burning them up in about an hr . also bought a 40lb sandblaster this weekend .was excited but could not get it to work with the black slag from northern tool ,also tried med. sand kept clogging up . at the tip and the bottom valve on tank .. going for fine sand today . I am worried about rust I cant get to .inside frnt /rear window pillars .plan to run some type flexible shaft wire brush in there then spray it with phoshphic acid about all I can do

SDX, Yep, that's the thing about restorations, it would be nice to actually drive the cars instead of just working on them for the rest of our lives. I'm shooting for two years, but who the heck knows; I think it all comes down to how often you work on the car and how much money you have to spend on it to either purchase the parts and/or farm it out. I'll be starting to strip the 1/4's soon, that's why I was asking what the best way to do it (other than sandblasting); I've heard aircraft stripper works well, NAPA has some that I was going to try. I can see dust being an issue for both sandblasting and sanding with an angle grinder; of course then you have the fumes from the stripper to deal with...As far as the blasting goes, clogging at the nozzle/valve sounds like too much moisture getting into the media from your compressor...

I finished taking out the inner lower valance this weekend; the middle of the trunk pan and pan/gas tank strap supports are toast but the frame rails look like they're in good shape. It looks like the runoff from the snow from Indiana winters ended up just sitting in the trunk and rotted the trunk & tail panels. It's a good thing the trunk pan is recessed or the frame rails would've been toast as well. I'll try to post photos of the updated nastiness tonight...

[3 Chiefs]

How much do they charge for the classes? I would love to take the class on mig welding sheetmetal. How did you like working with the English wheel?

Randy I was at the international meet and it cost me 100 dollars for the week. Plus a little for camping. I have a cap on my truck so I just slept in there. Its held at a fairground in Illinois. It got a little noisy at night because some of the die hards banged metal till about 2am. The cost for regional meets is free I believe.
The english wheel is cool but it was tiring to my arms. I learned quickly that you don't need much pressure on the wheel to move metal.
For your info. Something that took me a while to realize. If metal is bent in a brake, or multiple pieces that were bent in a brake are welded together. They call that metal fabricating. The say it is not sheetmetal shaping. Shaping takes place when sheetmetal is stretched or shrunk. There are many ways to do both. When the surface area changes, shrink or stretch, that is shaping. Its a fun and interesting thing to learn about. Its a very old craft too. Think about knights in armor. All hand shaped sheet metal.
Paul

[70RamAirIIITA]

Hey Paul,

Thanks for the info; I posted my first post on metalmeet today asking if anyone knew of a meet or day classes in my area so I'll see how that goes. That's interesting to know there's a difference between fabrication and shaping; so are you saying that you'd rather build a suit of armor than a street rod?

Here are some pics after getting the inner lower valance panel out; the trunk pan is next up. From the looks of it, I'll need to replace the center trunk pan and the left lower trunk panel extension. The right extension and rear section of the right 1/4 are in much better shape then the left; this leads me to believe the car sat tilted to the left when it was sitting out in pasture.

[matrix]

Originally Posted by sdx455

I was saying ten year project , but realize I am getting older almost 50 so am on the fast track maybe 3-5 depending if I farm some work out ...Tried striping doors with airplane stripper paint was so hard woulnt penatrate ,did alot of it with those longer lasting sandpapaer wheels 41/2 inch grinder .. to much dust went back to stripper. put on heavy leave alone 20 min clean then do again . gets down to original primer which stripper wont remove . then use one of those ,they look like heavy duty scotchbrite paint stripper pads on the grinder , they dont leave the gouges sand paper does . Harbor freight ,,,, went through 4 knotted wire brushes cleaning inner and outer firewall this weekend . I was burning them up in about an hr . also bought a 40lb sandblaster this weekend .was excited but could not get it to work with the black slag from northern tool ,also tried med. sand kept clogging up . at the tip and the bottom valve on tank .. going for fine sand today . I am worried about rust I cant get to .inside frnt /rear window pillars .plan to run some type flexible shaft wire brush in there then spray it with phoshphic acid about all I can do

Use the screened, dried, play sand. And screen it again as you put it into the blaster. One tiny pebble will clog you up. Moisture as someone said will kill you too. Store your sand in a dry place. If you detect any moisture dont use it. I have poured sand out in the sun on a tarp to let it dry. I also spread out a big tarp to catch the sand so I can reuse it a couple times.

[mike nixon]

Originally Posted by 70RamAirIIITA

Paul, thank you for the information on metalmeet, I'm really excited to start reading the threads and also about looking into going to one of the upcoming meets in my area. When taking on a project of this magnitude, I feel I need to learn as much as I can about all aspects of the restoration process. I know the "easy" part is drilling out the spot welds and cutting away all of the rusted sheetmetal; it's one thing to cut it out but quite another to get the panels lined up and welded in. Randy Ferguson looks like he's a master of his trade and I'm sure there are many others who have mastered various processes who are on the site as well. The meets sound like a blast, it sounds like you met some new friends, learned some new things and really enjoyed yourself. How much do they charge for the classes? I would love to take the class on mig welding sheetmetal. How did you like working with the English wheel? The next thing you know, you'll be building an entire street rod using nothing more that sheet metal, an English wheel and a welder! I bet that motorcycle fender is something to be proud of!
Randy





Mike, even using seam sealer on the areas that are spot welded will allow moisture to penetrate the seam?



..

if you can take classes it'll help you immensly if you've never done this before.


over time seam sealer will shrink, that's a given. it may be two years or twenty depending on the quality of the sealer. i've used structural adhesive with good results but it's major $$$$$$$$$ when compared to traditional seam sealer.

mike