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#81
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Pay once, cry once.
At least with tool steel lifters you know they won’t be soft, plus they can be used on multiple different cams without issues. Beats rebuilding the whole engine just because of cheap junk soft lifters.
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1964 Tempest Coupe LS3/4L70E/3.42 1964 Le Mans Convertible 421 HO/TH350/2.56 2002 WS6 Convertible LS1/4L60E/3.23 |
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#82
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Been running our Z with it's factory solid flat tappet daily for 6 years now and after break in the lash has been absolutely spot on for over 50,000 miles. Can't complain. I nitrided that cam and run the tool steel EDM lifters on it. Last edited by Formulajones; 09-29-2022 at 04:38 PM. |
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#83
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I've read on the subject that it may or may not increase the size of the component depending on how the process is done. None of that was even part of the discussion on the Z cam when I had that done. Even some crankshafts were factory nitrided, my 302 Z engine was one. |
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#84
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Maybe go all the way with tool steel lifters with a billet steel sft cam. I inquired about it and the cams can not be done because the blanks start out as roller cam blanks before heat treating and that goes .100-.125 deep. It gets ground off taking it down to sft size and you if you re heat treat the cams are not straight anymore and the journals can not be re ground. So its a problem.
You would need a special run of steel sft cams sized right from the start so the cams can be ground and straightened after heat treating. Even with the heat treating ground off you would think the cams would be a lot harder than a iron cam. But I bet all your cam problems would go away if it could be done. |
#85
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Having Nitriding flake was only in regard to a cheap HFT lifter on a Nitrided HFT cam. Mostly because of the effect of the nitriding on the metallurgy of the cast cam core’s used for HFT cams and the softness of the lifters not wearing proper.
Nitriding on a SFT should not have near the issues with the tougher cores. Last edited by Jay S; 09-29-2022 at 09:31 PM. |
#86
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Seems like DLC type coating might be a possibility for lifters. These are the type questions I like to talk directly to the manufacturers at PRI about. We have had one bad lifter failure on the dyno in the last year. An almost stock Ford 260 V-8 for a Falcon. Low spring pressure. Killed 3 lifters anyway. All typical precautions followed. Cam break-in paste used. High zinc break-in oil, 90 lbs. seat pressure, engine pre-lubed. Still killed the lifters and cam in about 40 minutes running time. It's a complete crap shoot.
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#87
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DLC coating gives lifters slick & hard surface properties.
https://www.calicocoatings.com/coati...xoCH9QQAvD_BwE Comp Cams offers it on some of their tool steel SFT lifters. And of interest, the internet is full of the DLC coating subject. Pros and cons.... https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33940 https://classracer.com/classforum/sh...ad.php?t=75418 https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13263 .
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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#88
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Once the lifter body is properly hardened, we'll have to work on the sloppy machining of the lifter internals..... Once that is solved we will be good to go. As long as no one changes the location of the oil band.
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#89
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Quote:
__________________
“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#90
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__________________
“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#91
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The hard shell on the surface from Nitriding is 3 or 4 thousands thick with current Nitride process’s on cast cam cores. Below that thin thickness the Rockwell hardness drops below what the cast core was originally. I can’t remember how much, something like 15 c scale. The surface hardness goes up by 15 or 20, putting the hardness 50 or better, but below that surface it drops to 20s to 30s. For reference average core hardness of most cam core is suppose to be in the lower 40s. These days it is more in the mid 30s. Nitriding is great for cam break in, then eventually with use the shell gets thin and it pulls small chips off the surface because the metal under that surface is extremely soft. Then the lobe gets wiped. Most off the shelf cams are cast of Proferall. Often the lobes are a little narrower on off the shell hyd cams using the basic Proferall cores. Solid cams are usually Proferall+, a bit better cores, and slightly wider lobes. Multiple aspects to look at for better success on cams with nitriding. Personally I would not bother nitriding a typical off the shelf cam with out a least looking at the core used for the cam. Nitrated cams with tool steel lifters is very common on flat tappet restricted racing, all racing categories. Some jump up to p55 cores, which do not seem to like nitriding. Most don’t have $ in the budget for the billet or tool steel flat tappet cams. Last edited by Jay S; 09-30-2022 at 11:19 AM. |
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#92
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A tool steel flat tappet hydraulic lifter would be nice.
Quite expensive no doubt but nice.
__________________
1964 Tempest Coupe LS3/4L70E/3.42 1964 Le Mans Convertible 421 HO/TH350/2.56 2002 WS6 Convertible LS1/4L60E/3.23 |
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#93
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#94
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So then what's everyone's opinion on the longevity before failure? I haven't seen that mentioned. Most of this seems to be based on race applications, probably with pretty high spring pressures I'd imagine.
I did it on my daily driver, with moderate (not crazy) spring pressures. I've gone over 50,000 miles on mine so far and lash still hasn't budged in 6 years. Are we thinking they'll only go 60,000? 70,000?? Because so far I haven't seen any indication it's on the verge of failure. Just for reference, the factory crankshaft was nitrided and when I pulled it apart with over 100,000 miles it was in really nice condition. Maybe the OEM used a different process than todays cam manufactures??? |
#95
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The three main methods used are: gas nitriding, salt bath nitriding, and plasma nitriding.
Comp uses plasma on their cams: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...qMQds7fLMxhVCn .
__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#96
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Are you talking about your DZ 302 engine Larry? Didn’t DZ cranks use tufftrided forged cranks? I don’t recall SBC nitriding factory cast cranks.
With the lash not budging after 50K miles, with a combination of the edm oiling, on a nitrided SFT cam that isn’t overly aggressive, I think it will go a long time yet. It is just getting broke in. . |
#97
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Quote:
__________________
“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#98
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HH62, I am sure we could all learn something from what it takes to get something durable enough for cams for aviation. Kind of what I recall is aircraft engines use steel cams and chilled iron lifters with heat treated faces, some are mushroom tappets, and probably HD roller set ups, all hyd. I am guessing those parts are much tougher stuff we get to run in our Pontiacs.
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#99
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Picked up a set of HyLift Johnson 0951 lifters today after dissatisfaction with 2 sets of Crower lifters.
The Crowers sounded awful in the 455. I tried 1/2 turn from zero lash and 3/4 turn from zero lash, and they still sounded awful. (HarlanSharp 1.5 rockers, round port Eheads) Fortunately TopLineAuto had a distribution center just 40 mins. away and these were in stock so no waiting for shipping. I was in the middle of pulling the motor for an oil pan leak, so the time was right for a change. The HyLifts were about 2X the price of the Crowers. The most obvious difference between the Crower and the HyLift is that ridge just below the oil hole. Crowers do not have that ridge. It does not extend to the full diameter of the lifter, but I am not sure of it's affect. |
#100
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Anybody know where Howard’s 052 hft lifters are made?
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