[Formulajones]

Ha that brings back memories Mgarblik

Yes that thing can get the wheel going 100 mph, it's actually quite an operation to see for those that have never experienced it. What you have pictured is what I have and yes they work excellent on the big 8 lug wheel stuff.

I didn't even think about it but I guess OSHA would have a cow with this stuff today

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Lots of questions there to try and answer...

THANK YOU! Well-done.

Originally Posted by mgarblik

The on the car balancers were popular and effective,

I used a Hunter on-the-car balancer early in my career. I was taught to feel for vibration by putting my nose on the fender while the wheel is spinning. So my face would be directly in the way of flying machinery if the wheel adapter thingie let-go.

If I could get one on eBay or Craigslist or some pawn-shop for twenty dollars, I'd turn and run. What a piece of crap.

1. They're static-balance machines. Leads to the "tricycle effect", where the front wheel of a tricycle can be static balanced, (the weight of the pedal and crank-arm on the left side is perfectly offset by the pedal and crank-arm on the right side) but we all know how a tricycle shakes when pushed quickly. There's a rocking-couple force that is only apparent when the wheel turns, and it can shake like a dog crapping razor blades. Static balance is not balanced as far as I'm concerned. "Dynamic balanced"--balanced in motion--is balanced.

2. Operator safety as said, and with the restrictions on positraction as said.

Really, if an on-the-car balance job fixes a problem that the off-the-car balance doesn't...you need a new brake drum or rotor.

[SRR]

Anyone remember "bubble balancers" Back in the 70's I used to balance wheels this way and it worked well, just time consuming. I actually own one.

[Schurkey]

Bubble-balancers are another static-balance operation.

If that's all you got, it's better than nothing. But it's a VERY distant second-place compared to dynamic-balance.

[Mr Anonymous]

I have some older cast off machines, a Coates tire machine and Hoffman balancer. The current mortal enemy is the out of round brand new tire. Like Mike said, it can be square and perfectly balanced, and still ride terrible. My daily "transportation device" is a civic with tiny 16" tires. And I got Goodyears for it last year. Rides like a hay wagon, and isnt smooth by any measure, due to O-O-R situation. I recently did some 15" tires for my brothers Sonoma, and his cheap-*ss ways actually worked out. An off-brand tire that was ROUND and took very little weight to come out 0.00/0.00 on my machine. IT drive great for a clapped out POS.

One of the on-again, off-again projects in my shop is a tire truing machine. I cant afford an $8000 Amermac machine, and they very rarely show up for sale used. I've had tires "trued-up" by one of these machines, and they were smooth even when you could almost see the air inside from them being worn out!

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by SRR

Anyone remember "bubble balancers" Back in the 70's I used to balance wheels this way and it worked well, just time consuming. I actually own one.

Yes a couple of mom and pop shops in the 70's I remember were still using those at that time even up into the middle 80's. Still sold today and still appealing to some hobbyists. They don't take up much room.

[Shockwave78]

Originally Posted by Don 79 TA

Q for the guys mounting and balancing now...
I guess the standard/typical machine is like the Hunter Road force balancer or similar right (say places like firestone, goodyear, discount tires, etc)
Is there an option to "fine" balance? I've heard of this, but also heard how much of a pain it can be, but the results are very impressive. you also need to capability of trimming the stick on weights or having various sizes
typically done for higher speed/higher performance times, from what i'm understanding.

When would you want a lug centric balance or a hub centric balance? and can these be "fine" balanced?
I'm asking in regards to the factory Honda Accord and Nissan Frontier tires/rims.
If i am not mistaken, Weld Wheels like my Draglites are supposed to be lug centric balanced.
Is this just a special adaptor or machine specific? Wouldn't your typical tire shops have this capability?

Don, In my experience working at a tire shop the standard tolerance on our machines (a new Hunter HD ELITE and two older COATS units), is .25 Oz. If there is a setting to balance finer than .25 Oz, I have not found it yet, but I wouldn't be surprised, the new machines can do a lot of stuff. However for most people, even on smaller cars like an Accord or Corolla, you can get away with balancing tires to within .25 Oz. I generally like to zero out the assembly, so the chance of vibration is much lower. On Corvettes and other sports cars, balancing in .25 Oz increments is fine too. However, as you said where you could have issues is with the very high-speed applications, which is where the machines with finer balancing and/or load rollers come in, finer balancing increments so the balance is plain better off the bat and load rollers so the tech knows exactly where the stiffer and more flexible spots are on the tire and any low or high spots on the rim to balance accordingly. Our Hunter rep has had calls from guys with drag cars asking what shops have certain models of balancers with load rollers on their machines specifically to have the best balance possible.

Hub-centric wheels vs lug-centric wheels can generally be classified into stock and aftermarket wheels respectively. Stock wheels were designed to fit onto one or two models of vehicle, so the center bore of the wheel fits tightly to the hub of the vehicle, thus the name hub-centric. On these types of wheels, you would do a hub-centric balance because you know the center bore is perfectly circular and centered on the wheel. This uses a properly fitting tapered cone placed into the hub from either side of the wheel, where it becomes the axle the wheel is mounted to, perfectly concentric with the rest of the wheel. You could do a lug-centric balance, but there really isn't a point given the machined, concentric hub bore. There is no reason that you couldn't have a lug-centric or hub-centric wheel fine-balanced as long as the machine is capable of balancing in sub-quarter ounce increments, as the only difference in balancing is the method of attaching it to the machine.


Lug-centric wheels are designed to fit on many vehicles with the same bolt pattern (or bolt patterns within a quarter inch or so in the case of multi-pattern or uni-lug wheels). The result of this is that the hub center bore is often oversized for many applications (and sometimes misshapen or out of round slightly) requiring the use of centering rings for safe operation. Properly sized centering rings fill in the space between the OD of the hub and the ID of the wheel to take the load off of the wheel studs and place it on the hub, where it was designed to be carried. I have a set of 80s uni-lug slot mags on my 78 trans am, and before I got centering rings, I had to loctite the lugnuts so they would not work loose, talk about a time bomb!

Doing a lug-centric balance is something that any shop worth it's salt should be able to do. In my experience, all you need is a plate that should come with the balancer for 4, 5, 6, or 8-lug wheels, they are adjustable for the different bolt patterns and slip through the lug holes in the wheel from the inside out, where it is clamped normally to the balancer from the outside.

On wheels like your welds, I would recommend lug-centric balancing and centering rings due to the aforementioned reasons. For the stock wheels on your Accord and Frontier, a hub-centric balance is fine because those wheels fit tightly to the hub and the hub carries the load, not the studs.

Grant

[Mr Anonymous]

As luck would have it, an Amermac truing machine showed up for sale two states away, and should be in my possession by the end of this coming weekend. We shall see. The planets have seemingly aligned, and round wheels are in my future.

[Don 79 TA]

Grant thanks for the info (and others too)

Update:
Discount Tires is going to give me 4 new tires. He did say they do the match force balancing. I will say, watching the videos on that, VERY interesting what these balancers can do now. Certainly was not around when i last did tire mounting balancing (well not at my friends shop at least). Michelin will not answer me, and denies my reviews, but oddly enough sent me an email with a case number basically saying contact the dealer....

It's interesting in the match force balancing, how you mark the tire, then the rim, then rotate to match up, rebalance, and it should be in better shape. Guess i'll see what happens later this week.
I did order new tires for the Accord and went with the MXM4's. I don't want to do a summer only tire out here as the roads here are harsh and they would probably wear out so fast.

I do LOVE the ride feel of the LTX's i have on the truck. MPG's improved 2mpg, and cornering is so much better, but certainly not something a real off roader would desire. I just hope the replacements have better quality. Current ones you feel the vibrations when 55 and over. Not to mention how much the tire wobbled on the blaancing machine too.
As said, you can balance a square, but it's still not gonna roll right.... (saw that in a video about the Hunter Balancing machine, pretty funny)

[Don 79 TA]

Originally Posted by Mr Anonymous

As luck would have it, an Amermac truing machine showed up for sale two states away, and should be in my possession by the end of this coming weekend. We shall see. The planets have seemingly aligned, and round wheels are in my future.

I'm envious....
I bought a hunter alignment system from a shop tool dealer when i was in AL.
So great to have.
i've wanted my own tire changing and balancing machines too, but... at my age now, i've got more important things to worry about

[Don 79 TA]

So here's my update.
First.... OMG... had the tires put on the wifes Accord wheels that i brought down in the bed of the truck. Clearly marked on the tires "outside" and "inside" and the outside has a pretty noticeable directional arrow so to speak. I look at the set they laid in front of me, looking for the tire birthdate, can't find it, then i flip them over and the info is there (DOT stamp, directional arrow/etc), and they come over asking is everything ok, i said they are mounted wrong. they look, all puzzled, and say, no they are mounted on and look good. i said backwards, they said no such thing, i said then why does this say inside (facing outward) and the outside is inward with the rotational arrow. Manager comes over, and says yes, you need to flip them over. They actually told me i doesn't matter...... Ugggghhhh
Good gawd, directional tires put on wrong, god forbid someone just left and drove in the rain that way..... wouldn't want to be around that potential law suite.

They did warranty claim the Michelins i had on the truck. Of course, i had to plead a case, and i was told its normal, it's ok if they bobble around, they still balanced. Then wanted to know how i knew there were so many weights. i said i rotated the tries and same issue. Then i was told Bias ply tires will do that, to which my response was these are radials, response then was, ok you have a point. I even said, swap the tires out, all 4, and i will even pay for the labor. They said, not needed. These new replacement are so much better, no bobbling as i drive now. I really do like the road manners on these.

Case in point, keep an eye out on your purchases and installs. In the case of the MXM4 tires, there are 3 versions, 3 different part numbers. I've seen others listed like that as well. I also try to get the same b-days on the tires too. Again, watch your installs, especially with directional tires.

I get it, turn and burn, crank em in and out, but..... i told the fellas, spend a few extra seconds, minutes and do some QC. It will save you and the shop. I learned that lesson the hardway at the shop one time. totally my fault too.

[Mr Anonymous]

My Amermac Model 600 arrived from Nashville yesterday afternoon. Now I am on a quest for some manuals and manufacturer info, and some hopefully painless self-employed on the job training.