[taff2]

Brian,admit it,you're not reading all of the posts,are you? I already mentioned the VW spigoted head/barrel arrangement

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by taff2

Brian,admit it,you're not reading all of the posts,are you? I already mentioned the VW spigoted head/barrel arrangement

No, I'm not. Some of you guys go on for long rants and when your grammar is on par with a 1st grader with poor sentence and paragraph structure, along with poor spelling, my attention span goes right in the $h!tter and I stop reading. It's sad, I know, because I may be missing out on learning something, but if you can't structure it properly so it doesn't hurt my eyes to read it, I pass on it. I can't read half of the $h!t Brad Spidel posts because of this, and when he posts late at night after he's been drinking, it's worse.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Help me out here Kenny, When I look at the photo you posted I see a 5 Bolt per cylinder
clamping force. I don't see 4 bolts per cylinder so your post is irrelevant to the discussion
about Pontiac sealing of the bores. Nice to know BUT........Have Bob and Frank put a 5 bolt cylinder head/ block system together and then we can talk apples to apples vs apples to oranges.

Not bashing but you are confounding the discussion related to 4 bolt Pontiac head sealing.

The typical "Best Ford Engine Gasket Made would last 10-12 runs in Keen's car. He had steel "o" rings, copper gaskets, and every other combination including 9/16" studs.

Quote by Brian Baker: "Tom, aren't air-cooled Volkswagon engines sealed in a similar manner?" Yes, as are a lot of WW-II Fighter Engines that made 3000+ HP.

Tom Vaught

Was just pointing out that anything less is taking a chance. 4 bolt per is even harder to seal. Even with 4 or 5 bolts per. Not arguing that there is a better system.

So what is the cost for a set up to use the optimum seal deal?

[Brian Baker]

Well, if I ever get this funny car running (and I will), we will see how a Cometic holds up. It's dry decked with no coolant in the block or heads and the studs have been upgraded to 9/16".

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Brian, just be careful. I have seen Ford guys do the same thing and end up pulling the deck around the threads (higher toque specs) and loosing seal worse then using a stock diameter stud.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Brian, just be careful. I have seen Ford guys do the same thing and end up pulling the deck around the threads (higher toque specs) and loosing seal worse then using a stock diameter stud.

I've got full confidence in my IA-2 block, which I had AllPontiac machine for the 9/16" studs. Those Ford guys have a block as stout? I seriously doubt it.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Was just pointing out that anything less is taking a chance. 4 bolt per is even harder to seal. Even with 4 or 5 bolts per. Not arguing that there is a better system.

So what is the cost for a set up to use the optimum seal deal?

A guy like yourself who can get boring done cheap and can buy cylinder sleeves cheap should be able to do the block mod for not a lot of money. Cutting the receiver groove in the heads to exactly match the cylinder sleeve centers may take more effort but a good machine shop could do it.

One way would be to make a fixture (using a cast iron deck plate), as I know that you
do not have a cnc bridgeport machine at your shop.

You hone the inside diameters of the individual bores of the deck plate to the outside diameters of the cylinder sleeves (after it is attached to the block with alignment dowels).

This gives you the Outside Diameter of the receiver groove that needs to be machined in the aluminum heads. You make the cutter the same width as the cylinder liner wall thickness. You cut the groove .040" deep and you leave the cylinder sleeves .045" above the deck.

When you install the head you should have a .040" seal into the head and the deck of the head should be tight to the block deck surface. The extra .005" length will compress the sides of the groove by pushing up the top of the groove.

You would probably need a tool to "jack" the head evenly off the cylinder liner
protrusions otherwise you would screw up the seal receiver groove. All of this can be
done with proper thought before hand. No different than removing snug 4 bolt main caps in block registers.

Tom Vaught

[62fatcat]

Brian B., and a bunch of other people who have posted in this thread

That is normaly the time that i make it out of my garauge. I then have to take my prcribed medications(real early in the afternoon say like 8m).
They won't give me any good stuff to help me sleep. So i have a little to much corn. And then naturaly as usual i try to to spell, i try to use proper grammer, and i also try to explane my findings, Not my ideas, onely what i have done, what i have wittnessed first hand, and what i thought went wrong.

Anyway, by this time i am tired and don't care. But i also can not type for crap or spell wel when i am looking at the keyboard, my fingers get in the way.

so anyway, i am BIPOLAR indevidual that has a lot to say and a lot of crap in his headd. hell at one time he went PD for mechanical engineering and had a guy try to get me to work in that feild when i was 17yrs old.

se, by know i don't care i am looking at the key baord and trying to type what i am try ing to say without looking at thekeybord.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by 62fatcat

Brian B., and a bunch of other people who have posted in this thread

That is normaly the time that i make it out of my garauge. I then have to take my prcribed medications(real early in the afternoon say like 8m).
They won't give me any good stuff to help me sleep. So i have a little to much corn. And then naturaly as usual i try to to spell, i try to use proper grammer, and i also try to explane my findings, Not my ideas, onely what i have done, what i have wittnessed first hand, and what i thought went wrong.

Anyway, by this time i am tired and don't care. But i also can not type for crap or spell wel when i am looking at the keyboard, my fingers get in the way.

so anyway, i am BIPOLAR indevidual that has a lot to say and a lot of crap in his headd. hell at one time he went PD for mechanical engineering and had a guy try to get me to work in that feild when i was 17yrs old.

se, by know i don't care i am looking at the key baord and trying to type what i am try ing to say without looking at thekeybord.

See what I mean? Cut back on that corn likker, Brad.

[62fatcat]

that's my problem Brian,
now i feal like myself, like i am the making decisions in my own brain.
i can think of so much crap from here till 3;00am and then wake up ready to do something at about them at 9;00am., And all the corn, all the meds, all the tirerdness, and all the B.S. that goes on within this board in the confines of the aplicable threads, makes me laugh.
anyway, i have broke more stock pontiac crap than about 99% of the population, but everytime i learnerd something.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Yep, All of the "other ideas" have some weaknesses, Brad, as you mentioned, based on your testing over the years. The Gas Ring concept Marty P used came from a Turbo Guy
named Big Bill Edwards. His gas ring allowed his SB Chebby 400 block (sleeved to 355 cid for more wall thickness) to make 1400+ HP. He used the "thick bearings" in the 400 block to get back to 350 cid bearing diameters. I gave the info to Marty and Tom Earheart and we first tried gas filled rings and later Marty went to a solid "ring" he and Tom E came up with.

When people machine wire grooves into the block and heads they are trying to basically make a Labyrinth passage with the gasket sealing. The trouble is part of the design is much weaker (the gasket material or Copper gaskets). This material fails over time and the sealing goes away.

Marty's "Solid Ring" method used no gasket material as the block and head decks were dry decked and the solid ring was much more resistant to heat vs copper or normal thin gasket material.

They were a PIA to make but sealed better and were more durable than any of the other methods. The "combustion gas ring" actually fit inside the bore so it was well supported and transferred heat well to the block.

I always thought the best solution would be a sleeved block like Bill Edwards deal with the cylinder bores .010 above the deck and a groove in the heads .015" deep. A Perfect Labyrinth Seal!

Course you need a IA 2 block to make it happen or a smaller bore 400 block but you CAN fix the gasket failure issues by not using any gaskets, LOL!

Tom Vaught

(Another Boost Secret)

Tom I know this is an older thread but I have alawys thought the same thing with the sleeve sticking up into the head.

id love to try it one day just for testing sake

[GTOGEORGE]

Pontiacs have 2 problems with their heads 1st.... is the 2 center exhaust valves that are next to each other (it's a heat thing) and no.2.......10 head bolts or studs (the head will lift). I will be trying a better stud (in the future) keeping the heads stud from stretching and not letting the head to lift. No matter what gasket you use the head WILL lift under enough boost pressure. The 2 or 3 Pontiac aftermarket block/head Companys out there need to get together and add more studs to the blocks and head (standardize it) like the small block Ford, sure would make thing a lot better for us Pontiac racers!


George

[bad69bird]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Pontiacs have 2 problems with their heads 1st.... is the 2 center exhaust valves that are next to each other (it's a heat thing) and no.2.......10 head bolts or studs (the head will lift). I will be trying a better stud (in the future) keeping the heads stud from stretching and not letting the head to lift. No matter what gasket you use the head WILL lift under enough boost pressure. The 2 or 3 Pontiac aftermarket block/head Companys out there need to get together and add more studs to the blocks and head (standardize it) like the small block Ford, sure would make thing a lot better for us Pontiac racers!


George

X2 George! Couldn't agree more!!!

[Gach]

My experience though out the years of seeing blown head gaskets. The problem
as I see it.... is the head moves around. The Cometic MLS with it's layers allows it to
move with out breaking it's seal....that's why it works so good. Even better then
O'Ring block with copper head gaskets. I think up till now " before Cometic MLS "
it was the choice set up.

Before I went to the Cometic MLS I ran a copper head gasket with
built in O'ring...which blow after a haft doszen runs...you could
see that the head was moving and turn the gasket egg shape
around the cylinders and unsealing the water holes in the block.
There was no signs of detonation what so ever.

[GTOGEORGE]

The turbo diesel guys run ARP2000 or ARP Custom age 625 head studs they do it for a reason. It's about time we (Pontiac Racers) wake up.


George

[marks73ta]

Sooo, when are the better studs going to be available? And can we afford them when they are? Anyone talk to ARP? I know that Steve Barcak goes to 9/16 studs on his 389 fueler blocks, I drilled and tapped his last block. Would they make any difference? Mark L

[GTOGEORGE]

What I understand after researching the internet the past couple of weeks is a 1/2" arp2000 or ARP custom age 625 will yield more clamping power then a 8740 9/16" stud without the drilling and taping for bigger holes, also they won't stretch as much. Now the bad news.........the price. Any special order part (no matter what it is) will cost more but in this case the more that you order the price comes down drastically, so basically we need the Pontiac High Performance community (KRE, AP, Butler, ETC.) to get on board. There is a demand, specially if the price is right. Just my opinion.


GTO George

[70 bird]

Now the bad news.........the price.

How bad of news are we talking here George?? I think many of the boost guys will be interested.

[Gach]

My guess about $300.00 for a set....vs $125.00 - $150.00

[marks73ta]

What about a group buy? Will Arp commit to one? I would be willing to get a set if they come down some at least. Mark L