[Chris Roach]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

So if the big factories "race blocks" use a higher tensile cast iron than their passenger car blocks I'll bet the engineers had a reason- as Tom V says

I had a reason for ordering that 24oz. beer last night, but I would have been just fine with the 12oz.

Just the point I'm trying to make, we all know "Bigger is better" but is it really needed?

Cheers. I'm off for another 24 or 2!

[Region Warrior]

Well, since they used to advertize(no idea now) thier blocks as the strongest Pontiac block ever made, it should at least be stronger then the strongest block Pontiac ever made.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Chris Roach

Just the point I'm trying to make, we all know "Bigger is better" but is it really needed?

You lost me here????

I think the point YOU'RE missing is that a certain block was "advertised" to have certain better attibutes then a factory block but fell way short of meeting those goals.

Then it was brought to certain consumers attention after said consumer started working on said product so they felt the need to have it checked.

From there on lies the problem.................... and the way it was handled.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Chris Roach

I had a reason for ordering that 24oz. beer last night, but I would have been just fine with the 12oz.

Just the point I'm trying to make, we all know "Bigger is better" but is it really needed?

Cheers. I'm off for another 24 or 2!

You're comparing a larger number in volume to a larger number in strength with this analogy. Apples and oranges.

There's a reason why a grade 8 fastener is chosen for a particular application over a grade 5 fastener, and that reason is for higher tensile/shear strength. Harder objects hold an edge better than softer objects, just as a sword will hold a better edge with harder steel, a block will hold a truer bore once bored/honed. Softer material will tear off in chunks with the boring process, leaving a "pock-marked" finish. Harder material will also move less when under stress. There are trade-offs however, as the harder the material, the more brittle it can be. That's where a "happy medium" comes into play, where the material is hard enough to not move around but soft enough to not be brittle.

You ask "is it really needed?". To put it simply, yes, but to expound on that point, when the Brinell number is not even as high as that of an OEM passenger car block, what have you got? Butter.

[Skip Fix]

Just the point I'm trying to make, we all know "Bigger is better" but is it really needed?

As has been said by numerous folks over the years depends on the application. I've got a "weak" 557 block that has been spun hard with 400 hp for years no problems, others here have posted pictures of main saddle crack with less HP on those blocks. So a better block was needed for them. Lots of guys blew out lifter bores in Pontiacs with big cams-better block or brace needed.

Adding more HP stressed alot more products, especially if boost or N2O and the potential for detonation get factored in. A Pontiac/Ford buddy here in Texas does boosted Mustangs and has split their blocks too.

It all depends on many factors including HP.

[Chris Roach]

Skip, Pontiac Dude, Brian,

My question is as simple as "At what brinell is a block prone to failure and at what performance level" Period. No one seems to have proven data on this. I understand the lower the number, the weaker the block, but there must be a threshold.

So will a block with a brinell of 170 or slightly less support 1000+HP???

[Steve C.]

Dig, its here within PY and public.


ASTM Specifications for Automotive Gray Iron Castings. The lowest grade or class within that specification has a minimum Brinell hardness of 170. The higher grades are 207 and up.

Some of the "TC" blocks tested in the 130's on the Brinell test.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"My question is as simple as "At what brinell is a block prone to failure and at what performance level" Period. No one seems to have proven data on this. I understand the lower the number, the weaker the block, but there must be a threshold.

So will a block with a brinell of 170 or slightly less support 1000+HP???"

Some might think you are being "Tricky" here Chris but I will try and answer your question as honestly as I can.

The block's Brinell hardness is one factor in the equation. It is trying to keep the "explosion" inside the case.

Working against this case strength are multiple forces acting on the block as you know:

The forces are based on things like the bore size, the stroke of the crank, the weight of the rotating and reciprocating parts, the rpm limit, whether the engine is NA or "Boosted", camshaft profile, and the list goes on and on as Skip mentioned.

So you see your "Question" is not "simple" at all. OEM manufacturers spend tremendous amounts of time and money to develop blocks for the applications they were targeted for.

The KRE and the IA-2 blocks were targeted for the very high horsepower market based on the pricing of the block and the advertising in the sales information. Chevrolet Blocks (costing less) have been tested on 2000+ hp dynos for over 60 pulls and THEN sent to the customer for installation in their car. These engines were in the 2800 hp range (assuming that the supercharger was taking only 500 hp to drive to make over 2300 flywheel hp).

So why does an aftermarket NATURALLY ASPIRATED engine rip the mains out of the block if it cost a lot more than the chebby block that was boosted to 2800 hp?

We all want to hear your response to that simple question Chris.

Tom V.

[Ron]

Good reply Tom!!

[Elarson]

I'm not taking sides...I don't have a dog in this fight.

Concerning the question about what hardness is suitable for a particular horsepower:

1) there are no sharply defined thresholds here. Higher horsepower for a certain hardness increases the odds of a failure. Conversely, higher hardness will tend to reduce your chances of failure at higher power and higher stress. That's a roundabout way to say that there is not a black-and-white answer.

2) Not sure what the hardness is for factory early-70's 455 blocks....but whatever it is, we started failing stock blocks rapidly at about 1000 hp.

3) not sure what the hardness is of the IA blocks that we've been using, but we've had them to 1500 hp w/o any failures. They are dramatically harder than stock blocks, based on the resistance encountered during machining.

So there's a couple of actual data points to consider...........

Eric

[Brian Baker]

Chris, some blocks tested did not even Brinell as high as a factory block. We know the limitations of the factory block. Having said that, again I reiterate, when the Brinell number is not even as high as that of an OEM passenger car block, what have you got? Butter.

[Elarson]

Also, above and beyond the horsepower level, our IA blocks have seen a lot of abuse in the form of detonation, melted pistons, broken rings, etc.......and they absorb it easily.

Eric

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Elarson

I'm not taking sides...I don't have a dog in this fight.

Concerning the question about what hardness is suitable for a particular horsepower:

1) there are no sharply defined thresholds here. Higher horsepower for a certain hardness increases the odds of a failure. Conversely, higher hardness will tend to reduce your chances of failure at higher power and higher stress. That's a roundabout way to say that there is not a black-and-white answer.

2) Not sure what the hardness is for factory early-70's 455 blocks....but whatever it is, we started failing stock blocks rapidly at about 1000 hp.

3) not sure what the hardness is of the IA blocks that we've been using, but we've had them to 1500 hp w/o any failures. They are dramatically harder than stock blocks, based on the resistance encountered during machining.

So there's a couple of actual data points to consider...........

Eric

Your point in #1 alludes to what I was saying earlier about hardness, where you want the material to be hard enough so that it doesn't move around on you under stress, but not so hard that it is too brittle and breaks under that same stress.

[Chris Roach]

Crap, I had a nice long response, but PY kicked me out.

So, In short.

Brian, not sure I agree with your comparison to a stock block, we all know the weak point of a stock block.

Tom, I agree with your points.
Not knowing all the specifics, I don't have a good answer to why a N/A block rips the mains out. Was it due to low brinell #'s or the countless other factors that come into play on a high demand motor?

Eric, your quote on "no sharply defined thresholds" was my point in general and have to agree that there may not be a black or white answer without extensive testing.

[Chris Roach]

Brian, whats up with the "warning level"

Is that PY's DEFCON?

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Chris Roach

Brian, whats up with the "warning level"

Is that PY's DEFCON?

It's not worth my time or effort explaining it to you (or anyone), so don't worry about it.

[pont406]

Chris, a block that has perfect imprints of the head gaskets pressed in the deck surfaces is too soft. regardless of how much HP it's making.

[STALLION]

Scott, Brian, my mistake I thought you guys were friends, partners in Brains car, SORRY! Brian I mean you and guys like you that have not had any personal or business dealings with the Kauffman's should not comment on them or their business practices. I think I can comment on them because of my personal and business dealings with them. I think I can comment on their customer service record and you guys should not. Brian we were fighting about this type of thread last year around this time, I invited you and that (lady) you were scrapping with to come to my trailer at the 07 Norwalk race, I did not see either one of you. I did bring the mistletoe for you two. Brian this is the RACE Forum, not the Customer Satisfaction Forum, or Business Entities Exchange Forum!!! Skip, you have had dealings with the Kauffman's, your not happy you have the right to complain. I don't know what you mean by getting to deep into it. As long as you guys keep on bashing the Kauffman's I well continue defending them!!! I have before and still deal with the Kauffman's. Again, as for a tough guy behind the computer I really am when it comes the COWARDS David Debonerhead and Steven Wilson. They are also invited to my trailer,when ever they are willing to fight a man NOT a CHILD come on bye and bring your scumbag friends that hang around with you guys after knowing what you did. I will not need a bat or pepper spray like you needed, right TOUGH guy Steven Wilson Or what ever your real name is!!!!

[johnsma22]

Originally Posted by STALLION

Scott, Brian, my mistake I thought you guys were friends, partners in Brains car, SORRY! Brian I mean you and guys like you that have not had any personal or business dealings with the Kauffman's should not comment on them or their business practices. I think I can comment on them because of my personal and business dealings with them. I think I can comment on their customer service record and you guys should not. Brian we were fighting about this type of thread last year around this time, I invited you and that (lady) you were scrapping with to come to my trailer at the 07 Norwalk race, I did not see either one of you. I did bring the mistletoe for you two. Brian this is the RACE Forum, not the Customer Satisfaction Forum, or Business Entities Exchange Forum!!! Skip, you have had dealings with the Kauffman's, your not happy you have the right to complain. I don't know what you mean by getting to deep into it. As long as you guys keep on bashing the Kauffman's I well continue defending them!!! I have before and still deal with the Kauffman's. Again, as for a tough guy behind the computer I really am when it comes the COWARDS David Debonerhead and Steven Wilson. They are also invited to my trailer,when ever they are willing to fight a man NOT a CHILD come on bye and bring your scumbag friends that hang around with you guys after knowing what you did. I will not need a bat or pepper spray like you needed, right TOUGH guy Steven Wilson Or what ever your real name is!!!!

I'm not all together sure that KRE, or anyone else for that matter, would want you as their spokesperson or defender, given that you're challenging people to fights in this thread! Grow up! With regard to your contention that if you've never had any dealings with them that you are disqualified to comment, I say, you don't have to eat dog sh!t to know that it doesn't taste good.

I've never had any dealings with KRE, but I can tell you this. Even if they win this law suit, they ultimately lose. They've done more damage to their credibility by treating some of their customers with contempt then any 10,000 threads bashing them ever could. I for one would sooner install a V twin Briggs & Stratton in my car than anything they had their hands on. But that's just me. Or is it? Only time will tell I guess.

[Pontirag]

I aint linin' up to buy thier stuff.

Stallion why aren't you up in the customer satisfaction section defending every other vendor.

How is it that we are the cowards? what defines a coward in your book and how does it apply solely to us and not others who's behaviour is contemptable? I dont get it. we are the cowards? Then who is the victim?

Why the threats of physical violence? We are cowards because we express our selves with a key board yet your ready to kill someone with a bat? in defence of a third party?

You should be reported to the police. You need help dude.

Butter wins but PY looses. Keep it civil in the future or they will edit this out and nobody will learn from it. An apology in in order.
we have a court and justice system so people who act like that dont control the outcome.