[1qikta]

Guys,

If you drilled and drained all the silicone out of a NEW non thermal clutch fan would there be any engine draw? Forget the cooling aspect..I would only be making one pass at the time cooling down between runs.

I just need it to look stock and make one pass at the time with plenty of cool down time.

[Zoojelly]

Anything bolted to the crank is going to sap power,I put a 3rd gen camaro fans on my avalanche and the engine reved up faster.
I had to add a bigger amp to handle current in case both fans started at the same time, I believe it was estimated 30 amps max load which was controlled through a special relay setup and PCM reprogram.
With the GTO rebuild I will go with a flex fan for close to a original look,I believe any extra horsepower will only spin the tires more unless I can figure out how to get traction with 14" tires.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Socrates

Currently, driving my Scout II daily, the fan is set to come on at 190deg...it NEVER comes on! It's in the 30's-50's here now. In the summer it still only runs occasionally.

Something's wrong with your thermostat. Apparently, even without air flow when stopped, the engine isn't getting up to proper temp. (or you don't spend any time at low speed/stop lights.)

Originally Posted by Socrates

I had a thermal clutch mechanical fan on it last week while making a new mount for the electric. The fan ran all the time and the truck NEVER warmed up above 140deg!

Yup, that's pretty much confirmed. It's likely that something is wrong with your thermostat, it is not allowing the engine to warm up.

I'm ruling out a temp gauge issue, your temp gauge and the temp sensor for the electric fan seem to correlate.

A thermal-sensing fan clutch should not engage until it's sensing overly-warm air coming through the radiator. Sure yours isn't locked-up? I can't tell based on your description of "the fan ran all the time..." Perhaps the fan is turning, but not firmly engaged? That would be normal.

[old66tiger]

I had thought about changing to an electric fan for my car. Currently, I am running a 7 blade clutch fan with a shroud on my car. When I spin the engine past 3500 rpms, the belts squeal really bad. I have new belts on the car, tensioned properly, with good belt surfaces and the clutch is about 7 years old now. Right before I pulled the motor this past fall, I took the fan off and ran the engine for a few minutes in the driveway. No belt squeal. The only thing I can think of is that fan is just too much for the belt drive system.

Ideas?

Also, for those who are running an electric fan setup on a 66 GTO, what would be a good bolt in setup for the car?

[george kujanski]

MD: the 3HP is strictly a data point; it's the only point I remember. Obviously at lower shaft RPM or lower electrical load, the drive HP will be different, but I don't remember the exact numbers.

Just a data point to show that automotive alts are not as efficient as one might think. Keep in mind, tho that with a elec. fan on and other electrical loads, the alt output may very well be up towards 60 amps.....

George

[Motor Daddy]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

MD: the 3HP is strictly a data point; it's the only point I remember. Obviously at lower shaft RPM or lower electrical load, the drive HP will be different, but I don't remember the exact numbers.

Just a data point to show that automotive alts are not as efficient as one might think. Keep in mind, tho that with a elec. fan on and other electrical loads, the alt output may very well be up towards 60 amps.....

George

There is a very simple way to tell you how much power the electric fan robs the crank of, it's called the amount of load that is placed on the alternator, which is directly proportional to the amount of amperage the electric motor draws. If the motor draws 30 amps at 14 volts, the wattage (power) is 420 watts. 420 watts divided by 746 (watts per HP) equals .56 HP required to run the electric fan. If the engine is at 2,000 RPM, .56 HP means 1.47 lb-ft of torque on the crank. If the engine is at 6,000 RPM the torque is .49 lb-ft.

420 Watts, times the time the fan is in operation is very easy to calculate the KWH required to keep the engine cool, at a minimum load on the crank due to the ability to shut the fan off completely from the crank. How many KWH's does the mechanical fan consume while continuously running, compared to how much it consumes continuously running through a mechanical fan clutch?

[Region Warrior]

Originally Posted by old66tiger

I had thought about changing to an electric fan for my car. Currently, I am running a 7 blade clutch fan with a shroud on my car. When I spin the engine past 3500 rpms, the belts squeal really bad. I have new belts on the car, tensioned properly, with good belt surfaces and the clutch is about 7 years old now. Right before I pulled the motor this past fall, I took the fan off and ran the engine for a few minutes in the driveway. No belt squeal. The only thing I can think of is that fan is just too much for the belt drive system.

Ideas?

Also, for those who are running an electric fan setup on a 66 GTO, what would be a good bolt in setup for the car?

Are the 3/8's belts?
They dont grip well.
Be sure to use 7/16.
Another issue could be pulley alignment. One missing thin washer, or incorrect length spacer will cause it.
Its hard to eye ball'm properly.
Try use'n a straight edge across the pulleys.
Another way to check is measuring distances from the block.

[lust4speed]

Originally Posted by old66tiger

I had thought about changing to an electric fan for my car. Currently, I am running a 7 blade clutch fan with a shroud on my car. When I spin the engine past 3500 rpms, the belts squeal really bad. I have new belts on the car, tensioned properly, with good belt surfaces and the clutch is about 7 years old now. Right before I pulled the motor this past fall, I took the fan off and ran the engine for a few minutes in the driveway. No belt squeal. The only thing I can think of is that fan is just too much for the belt drive system.

Ideas?

Also, for those who are running an electric fan setup on a 66 GTO, what would be a good bolt in setup for the car?

Cheap belts are like rubber bands - they just keep stretching. A good belt like a Gates (and Napa brand since they are Gates belts) will have very limited stretch. Take the cheap belt and apply pre-load and it will feel spongy; then pre-load a Gates belt and it will only stretch about a half inch.

As far as the other comments on not building engine heat in the winter - then something is wrong with the thermostat or the thermostat's ability to limit water flow. If you have drilled holes around the thermostat then you have defeated its ability to close off water flow. A properly working thermostat in a proper environment will maintain the coolant at the thermostat's opening temperature. Also, if you have closed off the bypass and the thermostat is closed, neither the thermostat or the temp sending unit is reading the actual internal engine temperature.

Also, a club member from Palm Springs had purchased a beautiful polished stainless dual electric fan setup for around $600 to "solve" his heating problems -- ended up running about 15° hotter than his old stock setup. I installed the severe duty fan clutch for him and now runs cool for the first time since purchasing his 66 GTO.

[BIGBLUE]

Originally Posted by old66tiger

I had thought about changing to an electric fan for my car. Currently, I am running a 7 blade clutch fan with a shroud on my car. When I spin the engine past 3500 rpms, the belts squeal really bad. I have new belts on the car, tensioned properly, with good belt surfaces and the clutch is about 7 years old now. Right before I pulled the motor this past fall, I took the fan off and ran the engine for a few minutes in the driveway. No belt squeal. The only thing I can think of is that fan is just too much for the belt drive system.

Ideas?

Also, for those who are running an electric fan setup on a 66 GTO, what would be a good bolt in setup for the car?

Tiger, I went through belt hell for around two years, until I discovered some belt grip 'Secrets' :

Number One, belt alignment is CRUCIAL to belt longevity and tension. If belts are off only several degrees of angle (not too easy to see) they will prematurely damage and start to slip. From the get go they won't exhibit as much grip. If you've ever replaced an alternator or power steering pump, odds are that the pulleys are not in the exact same pressed on position, and therefore your belt / pulley alignment is suspect. Spend some time and use some washers to get it right. I did this, and my belts are nearly indestructible, even the cheap Dayco junk lasts for a couple of years, and many, many trips to the redline.

Number Two: If your car originally came with two different width belts, odds are that the unified water pump and crank pulleys are a slightly different size from grove to grove (on the same pulley). Even if they are exactly the same, two belts of different widths sit deeper or higher in the grove. Throw off that pre determined ratio, and one belt will have a different ratio from the water pump to the crank pulley than the other. That means one will slip and the other will grip. Eventually both will go bad, and you know the rest. Try to find out the original belt sized and stick with them. If your using pulleys from another car, use the belts from that car.

Number Three: I usually retention my belts two times after the initial install. The first time usually takes up a half-inch or so of adjustment, and the next only an eighth inch or so. That usually occurs around a day later for the first retention, and a month later for the second. Keeping an optimal tension goes a long way to making the belt grip. Actually I have noticed that belts tend to run lose when it's very cold outside, so if you want to get fanatical, even after the belt is broken in, you can retention once in the winter, and once in the summer. I'll bet if the other things I mentioned are right, you probably can dispense with that.

Number Four: Never re-use a belt that looks cracked, heavily glazed, or has flipped. It's only a short matter of time before the worst happens.

Number Five: Buy the BEST quality belts you can get your hands on. The Dayco stuff I have on my car now is OK for a mostly street driven ride, but falls very short for track use. Gates of Goodyear are much better. Solid non-ribbed belts can take the intense Shock delivered by a stick shift car better (read this in an engineering report on v-belt design).

Does the weight of a clutch fan and resistance of a big fan put extra stress on the belts? Probably a little, but I think the first couple of things I suggested are way more important to good belt life and squeal free operation. If your clutch fan's clutch doesn't disengage at High RPM, that's going to be a problem. You can usually hear the huge howl when you pick up RPM.

[dmac]

Socrates' electric fan barely ever ran on his scout in cool season driving. His mechanical fan always ran. The electric was way more efficient, using power only when needed.

If you set up your electric fan at the same place as the mechanical, and use the same shroud, and set the electric to come on a little early, like a mech. fan, and stay on a little longer, like a mech fan, and add the weight of the clutch so the electric weighs as much, I am willing to cede that a mechanical fan can be as good as an electric.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by old66tiger

When I spin the engine past 3500 rpms, the belts squeal really bad... and the clutch is about 7 years old now... The only thing I can think of is that fan is just too much for the belt drive system.

Ideas?

Defective fan clutch; won't disengage?

Originally Posted by dmac

Socrates' electric fan barely ever ran on his scout in cool season driving. His mechanical fan always ran. The electric was way more efficient, using power only when needed.

Using a vehicle with an apparent defect in the cooling system--when that defect would tend to favor the electric fan--probably isn't the best (least biased) example you could have chosen.

[old66tiger]

I have worked pretty hard to get the pulleys aligned properly. I am running the NAPA belts and a NAPA clutch. If I remember right, NAPA belts are Gates. Also, the belt width are stock selections from the catalog. I will have to measure up. 7/16" sounds pretty wide. I would suspect 3/8"

You know, I don't hear a howl at higher RPMS. When I rev it up in the driveway, the fan just spins faster and faster. Maybe the stupid thing is not disengaging like it should. Napa clutch with life time warranty. Maybe time to vist my loal NAPA store again. Get the good stuff???

[Socrates]

Defective cooling system? Hmmm...I know people that would kill to have my cooling system "problem!"

Today, with the elec fan, the truck rapidly warmed up to temp, around 175 on my pretty nice $100 elec water temp gauge, and stuck there after 10 min of warmup/driving to lab. It was 19 deg outside this a.m.

In comparison with the clutch fan I ran previously this winter, a fan which I actually stole from my 68 GTO with 7 blades, the fan over-cooled the engine and it ran all the time (Redline for a IH 345 engine is about 4,000 RPMs and I manually shift by 3K most all the time). With the clutch fan it was a tornado under the hood, and, again, it spun all the time. The clutch fan made it just about impossible to get a good winter tune on my carb, as the temps where all over the place. Now, with the small electric, I can easily set my carb, don't have to listen to the noise of the mech fan, and have a very appreciably faster revving engine. If I recall, the t-stat is a high flow mr gasket type stat, fwiw, and the IH cooling setup is distinctly different the the PMD V8, too...

For an analogy on how over-cooling the block/intake/heads/carb/etc with 5,000cfm of fan air from a mech. fan can affect coolant warmup and vehicle manners in the winter: Anyone ever run with a blocked intake heat/exhaust crossover on an iron intake in the winter (real winter, as in 30deg or colder) on your Pontiacs? Not the smartest thing you've ever tried, eh? I know, as I tried it myself...once!

[Z Code 400]

Thought I would chime in here. I have run both a 7 blade solid fan from a Lincoln and a 7 blade GM fan with a severe duty clutch.

The solid fan, despite being heavier, makes little if any noise when compared to the 7 blade clutch fan. The solid fan is also smoother at every rpm as the 7 blade clutch fan makes a 'buffeting' sound when engaged. It made the same noise with a new 5 blade GM fan too.

I am running a 160° Robertshaw thermostat. With the 7 blade Lincoln solid fan, you cannot make the temperature go over 170° under any conditions. With the clutch, the car runs 190° to 200° even when it is 39°F outside.

As far as horsepower is concerned...

The engine will drop 75 rpm @ 3500 rpm when the clutch engages. If I loosen the alternator brackets, leaving only the 'slider' tight, run the engine up to 3500 rpm and then release the sliding bolts, allowing the alternator to 'slam' down in the adjustment slot relieving all belt tension, I can see no measureable rpm drop on my Snap On Digital Timing Light.

Not sure if this helps, but the 7 blade, 18" Lincoln solid fan is by far the best I have found for all around cooling and quiet operation...Robert

[Half-Inch Stud]

Does thaaat Lincoln Fan feature a Nylon-like plastic bladeset?

[Z Code 400]

Very heavy 7 blade, fixed-pitch, all steel construction...Robert

[Joel Koontz]

Z-code, have you ever tried an electric fan.

I'm don't doubt that the fixed mechanical fan provides great airflow and cooling, but it is surely wasting a lot of energy/fuel by running at full engine speed all the time. When going down the road at 40+ MPH (and probably a lot slower) it should not need to be turning at all.

Sounds like a good electric fan might work great for you.

Have you tried the clutch with the Lincoln Mechanical Fan?

[Z Code 400]

Joel,

I haven't tried a clutch with the solid fan because the hubs are entirely different.

It could very well be true that an electric fan would save energy. However, in my opinion, the HP loss is minimal on this street application.

I much prefer the improved cooling and reduced noise of the Lincoln Fan...Robert

Attached are photos of the 7 blade GM fan (1972 454 Chevrolet Truck) with 6.2 Litre Diesel Severe Duty Clutch and the 7 Blade Fixed-Pitch Lincoln Fan.

[BIGBLUE]

Originally Posted by Z Code 400

Joel,
Attached are photos of the 7 blade GM fan (1972 454 Chevrolet Truck) with 6.2 Litre Diesel Severe Duty Clutch and the 7 Blade Fixed-Pitch Lincoln Fan.

That is one bad A** fan. Now I know were they go the design for my flex fan (the one I had years ago). That staggered arrangement doesn't make much noise, even at high RPM's.

I remember using that type fan (direct drive) on my Camaro years ago and if you were wearing shorts, you could feel it suck air from 2" in front of the car! No bull.

I NEVER had an overheating problem, even on 100-degree days idling in traffic with a big cam an the stock radiator, not with that type of fan.

My only concern with a clutch fan is getting the right clutch for the setup, so it can work properly. The last one I had on my Pontiac never fully disengaged, even when it was cold outside. It made a super cool howling sound, but I'm sure that was at the cost of several hp all along the way. I ended up going back to a flex fan ( 5 blade ) when I changed the GP's stock radiator for a Griffin.

My current Flex-fan gets pretty dang flat at around 2,500 - 3,000 RPM and that works good for my cruise RPM with 2.56's At an idle it still pulls a considerable amount of air, but not as much as your 7 blade arrangement at a full clutch lock. You really can't get much better than your setup for cooling IMO. If someone is still having problems with your arrangment, something else is probably wrong.

[Steve C.]

Curious, if one was crusing down the highway at 70 mph around 2100-2200 rpm could a fan like the 7 blade fixed-pitch fan shown here or something similar that has large fixed blades hinder the air flow entering the radiator as the car moves forward ? or is the fan pulling more volume than that ?