[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

This will be my first hydraulic flat tappet cam in 50 years.
I will use, again, the 15w40 oil recommended by the BP Oil Company rep with the high ZDDP (1400 ppm) values.

Since I have never driven the car in cold weather in years, I am not worried about the 15w vs the 10w.
The engine was happy with the oil and the Solid Flat Tappet cams installed over the years.

Good luck with your project.

Tom V.

Tom: I'm puzzled at what your reference is. The 10w verses the 15w? As far as I know Amsoil doesn't made a 15w-40 why I said 10w-40. I only wish he puts 15w-40 back in it. I still believe he is having issues with his oil pump. Was me I would checkout different weight oils and probably pull engine and change oil pump.

[bhill86]

I was hoping to avoid pulling the engine but I suppose it’s easy enough to yank out and pull the pan. The pan gasket leaks a little anyways so it would be a good time to change that.

[chuckies76ta]

This thread started out about the oil plug up by the distributor pad. Now that everything has come full circle were into the oil pressure. As lust4speed has corrected me on the bypass in the oil filter housing, he is correct. If you were monitoring oil pressure by distributor plug it would be the pressure after the oil filter. What kinda scares me is that the pressure after the filter might even be a bit lower as the filter offers a restriction. Three of us have now said it possible that the oil pump bypass is stuck open. Is is also possible the screen is a issue. I don't know, but I think issue with oil pump. I guess you could always remove the oil filter housing, block the area with a piece of 1/4 steel and gasket and then spin the oil pump with a tool at the distributor. I would drill a hole in my custom plate and install a fitting and connect a pressure gauge to it see what the pump does turning at different speeds. Maybe on high speed it might help unseat the check ball enough that is clears any debris and the check ball seats properly.

[bhill86]

Originally Posted by chuckies76ta

This thread started out about the oil plug up by the distributor pad. Now that everything has come full circle were into the oil pressure. As lust4speed has corrected me on the bypass in the oil filter housing, he is correct. If you were monitoring oil pressure by distributor plug it would be the pressure after the oil filter. What kinda scares me is that the pressure after the filter might even be a bit lower as the filter offers a restriction. Three of us have now said it possible that the oil pump bypass is stuck open. Is is also possible the screen is a issue. I don't know, but I think issue with oil pump. I guess you could always remove the oil filter housing, block the area with a piece of 1/4 steel and gasket and then spin the oil pump with a tool at the distributor. I would drill a hole in my custom plate and install a fitting and connect a pressure gauge to it see what the pump does turning at different speeds. Maybe on high speed it might help unseat the check ball enough that is clears any debris and the check ball seats properly.

I know, I didn’t intend on this thread getting to this point. I figured I would’ve ended up posting a new one if it came to it.

What started this was last October I cut open my oil filter for the first time just as cheap insurance and curiosity. There were a few small, very thing, flakes in that filter but by the time I realized that I’d already drained the oil into a pan that prohibited me from examining the oil. I decided just to monitor at that point. I had 4400 miles on the engine or so and it’s been in for 5 years.

Fast forward to this year (and only 200-300 miles later), I had a leaky heater hose to the cylinder head and coolant pooled around the distributor hole. I was afraid the oil may have had some coolant contaminate it so decided to change the oil. Stupid me though, I forgot about monitoring the oil and drained it into the same pan as before without examining it. I did see some junk on top of the pan but it turned out to be flakes of paint that matched the engine. I cut the filter open for the heck of it and found one similar thin flake inside (not paint) but it was otherwise spotless. That’s when I decided to install a mechanical gauge, drive another 200 miles or so and inspect the oil again an what led me to this post. I’ve had no other oddities with the engine which is why I rolled the dice on monitoring it for now.

[chuckies76ta]

It's all good here Brian. This stuff is always a learning experience when it happens. Although I don't wish troubles on anyone. I hope you make out ok and keep us posted if you get things figured out. Thanks

[Sirrotica]

If you dead head that oil pump, you'll probably break your wrist with a good drill motor. Not a good idea in my estimation.

Fluid will not compress, and by the time the relief opens you'll be wishing you hadn't tried it.

Dead heading a pump is never a good idea, I've worked with hydraulic equipment since the mid 80s, and was always cautioned on dead heading a pump to take a pressure reading on a hydraulic circuit. On a hydraulic pump it will usually shatter the pump internals, but your dealing with thousands of pounds of pressure, instead of 60-80 lbs in an oil system. I doubt it would break the pump, but it will likely stall it, before the relief opens.

An oil pump with no restrictions takes at least 1/2 HP to spin at idle. Locked solid with no place for oil to go it's just going to be like putting the drill chuck in a vise.

I will always try to save some labor if it's feasible, IMO, not feasible. As I already have posted, very seldom does a stuck relief fix itself in a Pontiac pump.

[bhill86]

I appreciate the advice from everyone. As much as I don’t want to I think I’m better off pulling the engine to check the pump. Hopefully the oil, pan and filter will still be clean after 200ish miles. At the very least, it’ll be a learning experience. I’ve worked on the top end of this engine and some others (minor stuff) but haven’t gotten into the rest.

Would you suggest I have a gander at the bearings too while I’m there (at least main) or leave we’ll enough alone? Assuming the oil is clean anyway. If it’s not then I know I need to explore more.

[Sirrotica]

If you pull the engine, look at all the bearings, most times it's only 1 bearing that is coming apart. If they're not really loose you could miss it. As long as you're there look at everything.

[bhill86]

Ok makes sense. Also, pleas forgive me in advance for what will probably be basic, maybe even dumb, questions in the near future. For example:

When I pull the caps, should I I tend on replacing the hardware or can it be reused?

Also, once the engine is out, is there any reason I can’t or shouldn’t leave the intake and heads on when I flip it over to pull the pan?

[wbnapier]

bhill86,

In my opinion, pulling the motor seems a little extreme. I watched your video, the oil pressure didn't look that bad to me. I wouldn't be happy about the single, small flake you mentioned finding in the oil filter, but unsure if it means pulling the motor.

I use 40w oil and have a 60 lbs pump. At warm idle (SoCal) I am about 18psi on an old Autometer mechanical gauge.

That's my 2 cents.

[Sirrotica]

It can be reused, if you replace the connecting rod bolts the rods should be reconditioned, more time and money. If you would find a spun rod bearing, you're going to be replacing rods. At that point you could replace all the rods, or just ones that were damaged.

I imagine you have main bolts, and not studs, they can be reused too.

If you don't need to replace any rods, the heads can stay in place. Piston and rod assemblies come out the top of the bore.

If there is metal in the engine you will need to disassemble it to clean everything out, so it will be a total rebuild. All depends on what you uncover inside of the engine.

Taking the pan off can be benign, and be rather a simple exercise. or if there is damage, it will be labor intensive, and expensive.

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

If you dead head that oil pump, you'll probably break your wrist with a good drill motor. Not a good idea in my estimation.

Fluid will not compress, and by the time the relief opens you'll be wishing you hadn't tried it.

Dead heading a pump is never a good idea, I've worked with hydraulic equipment since the mid 80s, and was always cautioned on dead heading a pump to take a pressure reading on a hydraulic circuit. On a hydraulic pump it will usually shatter the pump internals, but your dealing with thousands of pounds of pressure, instead of 60-80 lbs in an oil system. I doubt it would break the pump, but it will likely stall it, before the relief opens.

An oil pump with no restrictions takes at least 1/2 HP to spin at idle. Locked solid with no place for oil to go it's just going to be like putting the drill chuck in a vise.

I will always try to save some labor if it's feasible, IMO, not feasible. As I already have posted, very seldom does a stuck relief fix itself in a Pontiac pump.

Ok, That makes sense. I figured if the check ball was stuck open some and you tried the drill it might show by moving some oil. I realize you can't compress a solid, but I was thinking it would still move the oil and the relief would be forced opened more. I understand like you said it would take alot of force or pressure to open it. Anyhow, I know from priming the engines I have done that it requires a 1/2" drill and you have to hang onto it. I did use my 1/2" Milwaukee drill on my last build to prime the engine, as I wanted to start out with min torque if that makes sense. I had is set on low and was able to control speed. I guess I could have mentioned that, but I agree with what your saying. Thanks for clarifying.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by chuckies76ta

it would take alot of force or pressure to open it. Anyhow, I know from priming the engines I have done that it requires a 1/2" drill and you have to hang onto it.

I turn the oil pump to "prime" the oiling system using an old distributor, and I spin it by hand.


To hear you guys, I must have arms like canned hams. I assure you I am not built like Mister America...or Captain America.

It take a heap of power to spin the oil pump fast. Doesn't take much power to spin the oil pump at cranking speed--about one, to one-and-a-half turns per second. The same as 120--180 engine RPM. Developing 40-ish psi with room-temperature oil.

You have 10+ psi at hot idle in neutral, which is not great but absolutely adequate. Pressure increases to 50 psi with more rpm. Yeah, maybe this is an oil pump pressure relief problem. I'd be very tempted to shut the hood and walk away.

My 'Camino has 12--15 psi at hot idle in gear. Not thrilled, but not opening it up.
My K1500 has about 12--15 psi at hot idle in gear. Not thrilled, but not opening it up.

[bhill86]

I’d love to just leave it but I’d be afraid to I think. Last drive I was below 10psi when hot off the eway. Came back up a little after. Could be the gauge I suppose. I don’t really want to spend the money on another just to see but maybe I could pick up a test gauge. Also depends on what I find in the oil when I drain it. Hopefully nothing. The way I look at it though, it’s not a lot of time or effort to pull and won’t hardly cost me anything. Even if I find no issue, I’m ok with that. What I don’t want to happen is cause damage that’s gonna cost me an arm and a leg if it’s avoidable. I just don’t have the funds for that at the moment. One of the driving reasons being my wife is pregnant with our first kid so I have like 6 months tops to mess with this thing before it likely gets parked for a while. And not a lot of expendable income lol. Fingers crossed I don’t find any surprises.

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

I turn the oil pump to "prime" the oiling system using an old distributor, and I spin it by hand.


To hear you guys, I must have arms like canned hams. I assure you I am not built like Mister America...or Captain America.

It take a heap of power to spin the oil pump fast. Doesn't take much power to spin the oil pump at cranking speed--about one, to one-and-a-half turns per second. The same as 120--180 engine RPM. Developing 40-ish psi with room-temperature oil.

You have 10+ psi at hot idle in neutral, which is not great but absolutely adequate. Pressure increases to 50 psi with more rpm. Yeah, maybe this is an oil pump pressure relief problem. I'd be very tempted to shut the hood and walk away.

My 'Camino has 12--15 psi at hot idle in gear. Not thrilled, but not opening it up.
My K1500 has about 12--15 psi at hot idle in gear. Not thrilled, but not opening it up.

Ok, I think your just being a smarty pants now. Trying to explain on a keyboard is not the easiest. Anyhow, I hope the OP make out ok. that's what the thread is about, not me.

[MarkS57]

Originally Posted by bhill86

I’d love to just leave it but I’d be afraid to I think. Last drive I was below 10psi when hot off the eway. Came back up a little after. Could be the gauge I suppose. I don’t really want to spend the money on another just to see but maybe I could pick up a test gauge. Also depends on what I find in the oil when I drain it. Hopefully nothing. The way I look at it though, it’s not a lot of time or effort to pull and won’t hardly cost me anything. Even if I find no issue, I’m ok with that. What I don’t want to happen is cause damage that’s gonna cost me an arm and a leg if it’s avoidable. I just don’t have the funds for that at the moment. One of the driving reasons being my wife is pregnant with our first kid so I have like 6 months tops to mess with this thing before it likely gets parked for a while. And not a lot of expendable income lol. Fingers crossed I don’t find any surprises.

1st: Congratulations!
2nd: Boy is your life gonna change. (that's what all my relatives & friends said to me; they were right).
3rd: Last tear down I did I found beat up cam bearings. They can spit out the kind of flakes you saw in the filter. Hope not but worth a look at the filter again.
Again, congrats!

[bhill86]

I appreciate it. I’ll have to see if I can find the pictures of the flakes I took from October.

As for the baby, not to get too far off subject but, we’ve been trying for a little over 3 years and had 4 losses along the way. It’s been a long road but we’re cautiously optimistic this time. We’ve more than doubled the length of the pregnancy this time compared to the longest previous attempt. Fingers crossed.

I think the first thing I’m going to do for now is drain the current oil that’s in it and examine it and go from there. I’ll post up what I find. Part of me thinks if it’s clean maybe try 15w40 again to see what the mechanical reads but I feel like (in my inexperienced opinion) the clearances recorded by the builder 5 years ago shouldn’t have required thicker oil.

[Schurkey]

Why don't you drain enough of the oil to generate an oil sample to send off to a lab for analysis?

You'd have REAL results of what's in your oil.

[bhill86]

I considered that but though I’d previously seen they prefer 500 miles on the oil. I haven’t been able to confirm that through their site recently though. I suppose I could reach out to them to see.

[bhill86]

Ok, been doing some thinking, so tell me if this makes sense to you. Factory gauge reads good pressures ASSUMING it’s accurate. Those pressures have been relatively consistent since the rebuild 5 years and 4600 miles ago. The only new variable is the mechanical gauge and the possibility of junk in the oil that I mentioned. That said, before I go yanking this engine, assuming there is no junk in the oil (and filter) I considered picking up either a test gauge or another mechanical to compare my current gauge to. If I have good pressure that matches the factory gauge I should be in good shape. If not, nothing list but some money for the test gauge and I pull the engine anyway.

Obviously if I find junk in the oil it probably needs to come out either way.