[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by bigchief

you big dummy if you want to go that fast come use my 509 [chevy] that will stay together and give me the money your pissing away you know who this is

Sounds like a local in bama. I have talked to Brand74 often. Don't make me load up and come put a whoopin on u a$$ & take care of his light work..

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE
I go roughly by the manufactures listed hp to start but fine tune from there. HP can vary depending on cu.in and your combo with the same pills.

You can run a plate square or more nitrous then fuel and bump the pressure to atomize a little better.

Same deal with a fogger.
Ya start somewhere on the low side, jet wise, to get a grip on what your nitrous system tune up likes.

Remember, nitrous doesn't make the hp. The fuel does. **********

Probird:
Come on Dude, you sound like a politician. Never really answered the question. Give us an estimate on the hp made with the jet sizes you listed. Is it anywhere near the amount this guy is wanting to spray?

I'm guessing by the question he asked that he knows enough about nitrous to be dangerous. It will take careful tuning at that level to get it done without hurting parts, especially with a stock block.

Now I have to ask. What other parts are in the plans to go with the stock block? Rods, pistons, crank, main caps, crankshaft? If these are also going to be stock or stock replacement type parts I would say it probably won't make a full pass. If these parts are good aftermarket parts that are up to the task of hp level you are planning to make with good machine work, it will live for a while but I wouldn't spray it too many times with that much juice. You would be living on the edge. The block would definatley be the weak link. Either that or the tranny, convertor, or rear end if you can put all that power to the ground.

I think I answered him. Start low work your way up. Listings by manufacture are guestimates with a certain combo and close + or - depending on the combo as I stated.

Back in the early 90's, I ran a 2 stage (about 350 hp total) with a 77 400 2 bolt block (about 450 on motor)and when I tore it apart the dowel pins were in the pan and all 3 center caps from the dowels to the cam tunnel were cracked. But it was running and just had a little lower pressure. Just tranfered everything to an earlier block. I have read and seen dozens of posts about the same thing even with earlier blocks without spray. So don't go slamin the block it's the hp level and the more importantly the intensity of the hit.

People act like the Pontiac block is a piece of Sh*t. It's not, just have to upgrade and pay more attention. Some just won't live no matter what. I was running 7600 rpm with a 455 back in 2002 or so on spray and people said it couldn't be done. Ask Holmberg, he was there and the Orlando street car shootout and on vid. The one with the yellow camaro on it's bumper. Listen to that 455 twisting 7600 thru the traps...... and lots of spray. Never came apart.

As I stated I have talked to him and knew roughly what his combo was that he didn't post. He was just asking which block to use. I would use the 428 4 bolt and prep it or... spend a bunch of money to 4 bolt the 455 and then use that one. But you can make the 428 run with a 350/400 shot and live. 550 hp with an factory block making 600 hp won't last long.

I was around the 950 mark back then using weight, ET and mph.

OK?

Post on.

[440GP69]

Dude would you sell or build that engine for someone to go race with?

[GTO]

Well I jetted my old fogger for 500 hp on our bragging rights Labour Day weekend run. It worked, I won my $5.00 Winter braging rights trophy back from the Cheby guys. That was in the early 90's. 1973 455 30 over, 2 bolt with studs, no fill, Butler 1950's hardened steel rods, TRW's, 48's .... When I pulled it for a re-fresh you could see the cap walk and the dowel holes in the caps were cracked. Would I do it again. ... No. But I did spray my new combo 10 times with a 250 shot this past Labour Day to get in the 8's and win my trophy back after 7 years! This time the shortblock is a bit healthier.

[440GP69]

One thing i do see is Blown/N20 engines lasting longer at high power than Maxed out NA high rpm combo's, still need to be smart about it

[TIN TIGR]

5.5-5.8 is low 9's hi 8's..6.60 is a mid 10 second car..you do not need anywhere near 550 hp nitrous..750 hp will probably bury your pal..up to about 3500 lbs..

how fast is your car now?..does it have an engine in it?..stock blocks with juice will run 8's..ask p-dude, or any of the other "known" builders on the board..dont take my word for it..you could stock block any of the guys..

more info..

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by 440GP69

Dude would you sell or build that engine for someone to go race with?

Yes.

Too many people making statements based on internet mumbo jumbo and NO experience or not having enough info when trying to do it.

[440GP69]

Cool

[David Holmberg]

I've been crewing for Pontiac Dude since 99, and I've only seen him hurt a motor once while spraying. That was at Butlers in 01-02? and it was a tuning problem, we went from a single to 2nd stage and didn't change the timing we were pulling out. This was before the new digital boxes were out to make things easier, and then it was only a couple of pistons.

I've learned a lot from Ken, pulling every single plug out after every single pass.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by 440GP69

Cool

Not dissin ya dude, just stating facts from actual experience since the early 80's.

And as a dealer for THE EARLY Top Gun kits and those stiff red lines, medical hard to fill small fitting bottles and thick heavy plates. LOL

That should get TIN TIGR wound up. LOL.

[440GP69]

Not many woulde even consider 900+ hp in a stock block and expect it to live or know how to make it live, Seems cheaper to invest in the good block and never have to worry about it But i guess I am the only one here with that thought

[440GP69]

I agree you are one of the best N20 tuners i have ever talked to and If i ever went to the dark side YOU would be my first call, Not without a big chunk of change though LOL

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by 440GP69

Not many woulde even consider 900+ hp in a stock block and expect it to live or know how to make it live, Seems cheaper to invest in the good block and never have to worry about it But i guess I am the only one here with that thought

But ya got to remember that before 2001 or so you had no choices. So you learned or actually thought out what will work or not. Same as your Top N/A Pontiac dudes running 8500 rpm plus.

Most that have done it just don't post.

Same deal as Pro Mod ideas and Pro Stock ideas trickling down the line. Ya gotta read outside the Pontiac forums unless you're happy working within what some feel as what they consider "safe boundries".

[440GP69]

BBC's Where what i did most before Really getting into ponchos 10 years ago And I still follow and Mess with them and Am building a 700hp Stroker 428 Ford F.E. 470cid My ported Fe E-heads custom Roller, Messed with Mopars Buicks and Olds even a Nasty Street Caddy 500, and a 500hp pump gas 327, I try and apply some of what works there to ponchos and some works and some don't But I research and Work with it till i find works for me, My 496 BBC I Never worried about the stock block to much Just the valve train and put in good rods, oiling, Easy as pie, But They Don't have the torque I like, And Ponchos have Tiny Heads ! Guess it makes for great street engines, I have experience Dude, Not as much as you and i do overbuild But thats ok IMO, things you tried in the 80's don't need to be done anymore with the good aftermarket support and as you run a engine building shop you can mess with this stuff everyday, I mess with fixing things like your Tow Rig down to 67 Show car Camero's, I have Ton's of respect for you and not tryin g to step on toes But The logic behind buiildng that 900hp stock block today makes no sense to me

[David Holmberg]

I don't think anyone is arguing that with you, Ken has always told anyone that would listen to go IAII for anything over 650hp.

I think the discussion is over IF it would work. Yes it's been done, but it's a ticking bomb, IMHO.

[440GP69]

No doubt, I know it wasn't that long ago there were very few doing what Dude was doing and even less making them live like he was! Wasn't saying it wasn't possible either I just didn't get why someone would try it these days is all

[screamingchief]

Dude,you need to get off the power trip here.

I been at this for quite a while too,and I know damn well he could make a stock block live if it were absolutely necessary,but it's not absolutely necessary these days,now is it?

The simple fact is only he could determine/state that situation one way or the other,all I did was question why the hell a guy would risk such when much better options exist for that sorta useage.

He'd be throwing good money after some tenuous short term results,with nothing solid to show for it.

There are certainly more than a few fast nitrous guys round these parts of Texas I'll have you know,been plenty of that for years and years now too.

And the folks I know up in the Chicago area know a thing or two about that as well...

His intial post stated a fairly lofty goal,with almost zero info given to help the readers make informed suggestions,I suspected he really did'nt have a good idea of what he was proposing here at the begining of this thread.

His words later on confirmed that suspicion 100%,and I quote:

Originally Posted by Brandn74

I know nothing about using nitrous.

I read this next comment and knew he was in way over his head on this sorta deal...

Originally Posted by Brandn74

By the way what is a 7531?

Whatever???

Dont take this wrong Brandn74,,,but to any guys running healthy doses of spray these days,,,that question was akin to walking into a room full of guys eating beans and asking who farted???

So Dude,then you say sure to the question,"would you build this for a customer to go race with",well do tell us the "rest of the story",how much is that gonna cost the fella "out the door" for the basic bottom pieces and block prep,all the machine work and such.

Then tell the readers what the other "aftermarket" option would cost that same fella.

I'll bet when the fella does the actual math it all becomes a bit clearer to him.

I never suggested what could or could not be done here,I was merely suggesting what should be done here.

And now we find out he may not even need those 2 stages of 550hp of spray...

Yeah,so go ahead and rant and foam at the mouth about how you did this,and how you did that,how you've been doing that since the dawn of hot rodding these pontiacs,and how you've never heard of me,and how you damn well know I cant know $#!t cause I dont go around trying to impress the rubes on these forums with countless tales of all things pontiac,thus giving yourself the sole undisputable claim to having the only valid POV on everything related to that subject...

According to you Dude,I guess we in the pontiac hobby dont even need these overkill aftermarket blocks,hey,I got an idea,why does'nt somebody call those block suppliers up and tell them to just go ahead and shut their doors,hell,we dont need any "good" blocks,we've all been completely mislead,and now we all know we can just get PDude to build our stock blocks up for regular 900 to 1000 HP nitrous duty!!!

Yeah,by all means Brandn74,go ahead,use one of those blocks,or better yet go find a 400 block and build that up as suggested,that wont cut into any budgets or anything either,if that's what you feel you have to do,by all means be my guest.

I could care less what some other guy does with his equipment and money.

Not gonna affect me one tiny little bit.

This has been utterly ridiculous folks.

But quite humorous reading I guess.

But alas Brandn74,I'll leave your thread to the sole "expert" of this forum,so he and he alone can make up your mind for you,cause we all know he's always right,and guys like me or any others here cant possibly know jack$#!t or else we would be household names like Ken,er,what's his last name now???

Good luck,you're gonna need it.

Sigh.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Hey SC. Untill you have done it go back in your cave and GFY.


You have no clue. Another book learnin posser. You have been HOW FAST with nitrous?

[performerrpm]

man this thread really gotta sh*t stink going.

[performerrpm]

[Brian Baker]

Keefer has done it with a factory block, making upwards of 1000 HP (or more?), and made many many passes on said block...and it lived. Through his tutelage, using a factory 455 block, aluminum rods, a cast crank, (and 250-cfm d-port heads), I myself have made between 750-800 HP, running 131 MPH on a 200 plate shot and 135 MPH on a 250 shot at a race weight of 3840 lbs. My block and reciprocating assembly lived too, albeit I had maybe 1/3rd the passes on it that Keefer had on his. I think the ole codger knows what the hell he is talking about.