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#41
06-30-2007, 07:56 AM
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With many/most off the shelf lubricants being inadequate for flat tappet cams, I'm strongly considering running roller cams in future motor builds, street or strip, considering the hassle/cost of lubricants that 'might' be adequate to lubricate a flat tappet cam. We're discussing lubricants that are available today. If I build a flat tappet cam motor that I plan to run for 5 or 10 or more years, what lubricants will be available to me 5, 10 or more years from now? With a roller cam, I guess I don't care. I generally run the least expensive petroluem oil that is not store brand. Except for once, I've always been religious on 3000 mile oil and filter. Racing and rich running conditions which contaminate the oil obviously warrrant more frequent oil changes. In high mileage/towing use(4.11 gears, no O.D.) my only known failures were valve springs and one burnt valve, both probably related to valve seat/guide condition. I used to use Mobil Super HP religiously, inexpensive, name brand, no known problems. I stopped shortly after they went to the big mouth or wide mouth, like the Coke or Pepsi bottles. Why did they do that? I like to stick the oil bottle in the valve cover hole, walk away and do something else, come back later, pull it out and dump the next one in. No funnels required. One oil I will never run again is Texaco Havoline 3. I had a lower end noise in my moderate/high mileage tow vehicle once with Texaco Havoline 3 in it. I changed the oil, with something else of course, and never again heard any lower end noises for thousands of miles.
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#42
06-30-2007, 08:59 AM
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synthetic oil use
I suppose that there are many different stories about this subject.
I had a '61 Bonneville with a transplanted 455 (all cast iron 400 built to 455 specs using a set of Jim Butler-prepped 6X heads, but aluminum Offie dual quad intake with dual Carter AFBs) engine that I had rebuilt and immediately after run-in to break in the cam (using 10w oil), changed the oil and filter and began using the Mobil 1 synthetic in 10w-30. I also added some Lucas heavy duty oil additive at each oil change. The cam was a Wolverine Blue Racer (specs not important). After about 15,000 miles there was no apparent deterioration of performance so I only conclude that there was no adverse wear taking place. The engine also had a set of Keith Black hypereutectic pistons that tolerate considerably less piston-to-cylinder wall clearance than typical cast or forged pistons, therefore I thought the synthetic oil was the way to go. Incidently, the 455 ran quite cool using a fan shroud, a new US Radiator 4 core radiator, 18" dia. 6 blade fan with heavy duty clutch, and 160 degree t'stat, the temperature stayed right at 160 degrees even in 90 degree weather at cruising speed - it did go higher when idling for some time, but even then it never got to 200 degrees). I do think that break-in of a new cam should be with regular oil to get the cam wear pattern established. That sums up my experience (I've since sold the car after 10 years of enjoyable use). The tolerances built into the engine may have significant influence on how the engine responds to the synthetic oil. The synthetic was developed for the modern engines with aluminum components and tighter tolerances than the older power plants we so very much like to retain in our classic rides. Frank Hummel, Jr. |
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#43
06-30-2007, 12:45 PM
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For an interesting read on oils, oil additives, and zinc contact go to lnengineering.com/oil. Article has list of oils and their zinc contact. Looks like STP blue may be a very effective substitute for EOS.
__________________
Greg Williams, Wabasha, Mn. 65 GTO, 455, DCI ported 6x heads, Isky Rpm 300 cam, 2-4's, 4 speed, 3.31 |
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#44
06-30-2007, 01:35 PM
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GTOFreek,
You are correct on all points...Robert |
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#45
06-30-2007, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Beginning in 2007, Rotella T had a formulation change...it's no longer packed with Zinc. Unless you have the old stuff, be careful. I use old stuff and STP in my solid flat cammed motor. Once it's gone, I'll switch to Brad Penn.
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Darin '64 Bonneville Wagon (sold) 69 Lemans-All motor (sold) 9.81 @ 136.39MPH |
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#46
06-30-2007, 02:15 PM
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Has anyone looked at Mobil Delvac???...Robert
P.S. We still use Valvoline 20/50 Racing Formula as long as we can still get it... |
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#47
06-30-2007, 03:27 PM
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Here's a list dated 10-22-2006 showing zinc content of quite a few oils, beginning with 20W-50 and ending with 5W-30. Is it possible that synthetics do not need zinc due to their superior film strength? Has anyone had a flat tappet cam failure with Mobil I or Amsoil?
20W-50 AMSOIL (old) none AMSOIL (new) none Castrol GTX .12 Exxon High Performance .11 Havoline Formula 3 none Kendall GT-1 .16 Pennzoil GT Perf. none Quaker State Dlx. none Red Line none Shell Truck Guard .15 Spectro Golden 4 .15 Spectro Golden M.G. .13 Unocal .12 Valvoline All Climate .11 Valvoline Turbo .13 Valvoline Race .20 Valvoline Synthetic .12 20W-40 AMSOIL none Castrol Multi-Grade .12 Quaker State none 15W-50 Chevron .11 Mobil 1 none Mystic JT8 .15 Red Line none 5W-50 Castrol Syntec .10 Quaker State Synquest none Pennzoil Performax none 5W-40 Havoline none 15W-40 AMSOIL (old) none AMSOIL (new) none Castrol .14 Chevron Delo 400 none Exxon XD3 .14 Exxon XD3 Extra .13 Kendall GT-1 .16 Mystic JT8 .15 Red Line none Shell Rotella w/XLA .13 Valvoline All Fleet .15 Valvoline Turbo .13 10W-30 AMSOIL (old) none AMSOIL (new) none Castrol GTX .12 Chevron Supreme .11 Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 .11 Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 .13 Havoline Formula 3 none Kendall GT-1 .16 Mobil 1 none Pennzoil PLZ Turbo none Quaker State none Red Line none Shell Fire and Ice .12 Shell Super 2000 .13 Shell Truck Guard .15 Spectro Golden M.G. none Unocal Super .12 Valvoline All Climate .11 Valvoline Turbo .13 Valvoline Race .20 Valvoline Synthetic .12 5W-30 AMSOIL (old) none AMSOIL (new) none Castrol GTX .12 Chevron Supreme .11 Chevron Supreme Synt. .12 Exxon Superflow HP .11 Havoline Formula 3 none Mobil 1 none Mystic JT8 .1 Quaker State none Red Line none Shell Fire and Ice .12 Unocal .12 Valvoline All Climate .11 Valvoline Turbo .13 Valvoline Synthetic .12
__________________
BONESTOCK GOATS '64 GTO Tripower Hardtop (Wife's Car) '64 GTO Tripower Post Coupe (My Car) '99 Bonneville SE Sedan |
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#48
06-30-2007, 04:27 PM
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Valvoline Racing Formula at .20 is very good. I plan on using that even with my hydraulic roller...Robert
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#49
06-30-2007, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Thanks again 
__________________
Jeff |
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#50
07-01-2007, 01:45 AM
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I think we need to note the date of the above chart of zinc (ZDDP) content- 10/22/06. Kendall GT-1 is shown as .16 PPM, but I suspect that is the zinc content of the old Kendall oil, before Brad-Penn bought the Kendall refinery. I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that the 'new' Kendall oils are just "run of the mill" oils. And I'm not sure that buying the "old stuff" from Brad-Penn would help, since only straight-50 and Nitro-70 are the original GT-1 formulations- the other Brad-Penn viscosities are all labelled "partial synthetic" (bummer, if you ask me). Anybody got an up-to-date chart showing ZDDP content of Brad-Penn oils?
__________________
Anybody else on this planet campaign a M/T hemi Pontiac for eleven seasons? ... or has built a record breaking DOHC hemi four cylinder Pontiac? ... or has driven a couple laps of Nuerburgring with Tri-Power Pontiac power?(back in 1967) |
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#51
07-01-2007, 09:49 AM
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And so far the "racing" oils containing high levels of zinc, etc. are not really recommended on the street due to a lack of detergents, etc.
I have been reading up on as much as I can get my hands on, and the lube manufacturers are not really forthcoming with info. on this issue, which is suspicious. |
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#52
07-01-2007, 11:08 AM
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I have been thinking about this subject a lot lately. Dad and I have discussed the matter in depth and reflected upon our experiences and decided to share our collective thoughts with you on the subject.
We used Valvoline more than any other oil. We kept 20/50 in the shops Air Boy Dispenser and that was what we used in everything. However, in the 1980s, I started experimenting with Aviation Oils in our racing engines. These oils are ashless, meaning they have no metallic anti-wear additives whatsoever. We used Aeroshell 20/50 in our 427 and 429 Fords both with well over .600" valve lift and +300 pounds open pressures. We never used a ZDDP additive and we broke these engines in on the same oil. We never scuffed a lifter, even after several seasons and we drove these cars (legal SS/a at the time) on the street too. What I have noticed, through studying the threads about camshaft failures, is a correlation between very high (IMO) valve spring pressures and the average flat tappet lobe. I have seen lobe failures recently (locally) on a Pontiacs with the XE274 in a Pontiac that had over 370 lbs open pressure...and this was ordered as a cam, lifter & spring kit from Comp Cams. I have never liked high ratio rocker arms and we have all our Pontiac cams ground for a 1.52:1 ratio, as a matter of preference. For example, my latest hydraulic roller (for the 412 project) was ground with .365" lobe lift which works out to .555" at the valve. I used Isky #5105 Dual Springs installed at 1.600" which equated to 129 lbs seated and 327 lbs open @ .555" lift. We consider this adequate for the average mass of a hydraulic roller lifter and associated valvetrain components at 5500 to 6000 rpm with the gentle, asymmetrical lobe profiles we prefer. However, a fast, jerky profile (Comp Cams profiles especially) would require much more spring pressure to keep the rollers on the lobes. Could it be possible that the lobe failures we are seeing in the Pontiac community are related to people buying a cam, lifter & spring kit and then employing high ratio rocker arms, effectively pushing the springs past their safe working pressures??? Just because a spring is advertised as functioning with up to .650" lift, that doesn't mean the working pressures would be safe with a flat tappet lobe at those net lift figures. I was recently asked to 'walk' a father and son through the assembly of their first project engine; a 455 Pontiac. I looked over all the parts they had amassed and everything was top notch. They purchased everything from a Pontiac parts supplier. It was simply a matter of putting the pieces together. They had 6X-4 heads that had been ported and were fitted with Comp Cams #995 valve springs and + height retainers. Their camshaft had .307" lobe lift and with their 1.65:1 roller rocker arms, this equated to around .507" at the valve. I told them I would not proceed any further until they obtained the correct valve springs. I explained to them, that even with their 1.700" installed height, (which I verified) the spring would exert over 350 pounds at full lift. The Dad questioned me on this, stating that since he bought the cam, lifters, springs, retainers, rockers and pushrods from a reputable source as a matched set, they had to be right. Since this was a considerable distance from our shop, I asked him to have the springs tested and if I was wrong, I would pay for the testing. He sent them to his local machine shop and the recorded figures for the #995 springs was different than the specs listed in the Comp Cams catalog. The springs had about 140 lbs on the seat @ 1.700 and 375 lbs @ 1.200" lift. This was far more pressure than I was comfortable with to say the least. I suggested a retainer change and swap to the Isky #5005 dual springs. He agreed and I took the heads with me. I did the setup personally here at the shop and ended up with 115 lbs on the seat and 278 open @ .500" lift, which I consider optimum for the lobe profiles used in this engine. Another problem I have seen is shops that don't account for the 'step' on the valve spring retainer when testing springs. I whittle a spacer out on the lathe (when testing springs) that mimics the step on the retainer. This loads the inner spring in the same manner as it will on the engine. This is a critical step in ensuring the spring measurements will be accurate. I would suggest having your springs tested in this fashion after supplying the shop with your installed height and maximum lift specifications. Aside from the routine coil bind and retainer/guide clearance checks, I also recommend calculating your VOTC (valve opening at top center) with the net valve lift being used and we consider this especially important with milled heads, zero-decking and high ratio rocker arms. We hope this information is helpful...Robert II & Robert Sr. Last edited by Z Code 400; 07-01-2007 at 11:21 AM. |
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#53
07-01-2007, 01:22 PM
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Funny Brad Penn oil is not in that list. If it were, we would all see that it has 1.2% zinc in it! That's 6 times the zinc of the highest oil on the list, Valvoline racing!
 Quote:
__________________
Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#54
07-01-2007, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#55
07-01-2007, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Go to bradpennracing.com and read about their oil. It has detergents in it also.
__________________
Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#56
07-01-2007, 05:44 PM
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20W-50
AMSOIL (old) none AMSOIL (new) none Castrol GTX .12 Exxon High Performance .11 Havoline Formula 3 none Kendall GT-1 .16 Pennzoil GT Perf. none Quaker State Dlx. none Red Line none Shell Truck Guard .15 Spectro Golden 4 .15 Spectro Golden M.G. .13 Unocal .12 Valvoline All Climate .11 Valvoline Turbo .13 Valvoline Race .20 Valvoline Synthetic .12 20W-40 AMSOIL none Castrol Multi-Grade .12 Quaker State none 15W-50 Chevron .11 Mobil 1 none Mystic JT8 .15 Red Line none 5W-50 Castrol Syntec .10 Quaker State Synquest none Pennzoil Performax none 5W-40 Havoline none 15W-40 AMSOIL (old) none AMSOIL (new) none Castrol .14 Chevron Delo 400 none Exxon XD3 .14 Exxon XD3 Extra .13 Kendall GT-1 .16 Mystic JT8 .15 Red Line none Shell Rotella w/XLA .13 Valvoline All Fleet .15 Valvoline Turbo .13 10W-30 AMSOIL (old) none AMSOIL (new) none Castrol GTX .12 Chevron Supreme .11 Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 .11 Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 .13 Havoline Formula 3 none Kendall GT-1 .16 Mobil 1 none Pennzoil PLZ Turbo none Quaker State none Red Line none Shell Fire and Ice .12 Shell Super 2000 .13 Shell Truck Guard .15 Spectro Golden M.G. none Unocal Super .12 Valvoline All Climate .11 Valvoline Turbo .13 Valvoline Race .20 Valvoline Synthetic .12 5W-30 AMSOIL (old) none AMSOIL (new) none Castrol GTX .12 Chevron Supreme .11 Chevron Supreme Synt. .12 Exxon Superflow HP .11 Havoline Formula 3 none Mobil 1 none Mystic JT8 .1 Quaker State none Red Line none Shell Fire and Ice .12 Unocal .12 Valvoline All Climate .11 Valvoline Turbo .13 Valvoline Synthetic .12 I'm sorry guys buys but this list of oils Dick posted is OLD OLD OLD. They don't even make Havoline Formula 3 or Valvoline Turbo anymore. This list was around when I rebuilt my Pontiac back in 2001 and it was old then. Also the oils that are listed that say none, it was because the person who did this list (Ed Hackett) didn't have the zinc numbers of the oils. __________________
__________________
1969 Firebird "400". 408 Pontiac, #62 heads, 274 XE cam, Eddy RPM intake, Quick Fuel Slayer 750, Carter Super Street fuel pump, Mallory Unilite, Turbo 400 with shift kit, Continental "Jim Hand Special" 3200 stall, 12 bolt 4.10 posi. 1 5/8 inch headers, 2.5 exhaust with Dynomax Ultraflos. |
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#57
07-01-2007, 06:03 PM
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Hey Z code. Its sounds like the 995 springs I have are putting out some high pressures. I've used the springs for 12 years. I first used them on my first rebuild in 1995 with a Comp Cam 280 magnum which was a half a$$ poor mans rebuild(very little machine work). We freshened up the motor in 2001 (with proper machine work on crank, rods, etc...)and put in the xe274(just wanted to try it) The 280 looked fine when we pulled it out. I ran VR1 20w50 in that motor and have been running VR1 for the majority of this motors life. Maybe I just need to stick with what works. One thing that I like about VR1 is its tackiness. The Mobil 1 15w50 however seems free up some horsepower.
__________________
1969 Firebird "400". 408 Pontiac, #62 heads, 274 XE cam, Eddy RPM intake, Quick Fuel Slayer 750, Carter Super Street fuel pump, Mallory Unilite, Turbo 400 with shift kit, Continental "Jim Hand Special" 3200 stall, 12 bolt 4.10 posi. 1 5/8 inch headers, 2.5 exhaust with Dynomax Ultraflos. |
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#58
07-01-2007, 09:43 PM
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James,
Please keep in mind that Comp Cams has recently published new figures for the #995 springs that indicate about 370 lbs open pressures at around 1.200" lift. New and old catalogs conflict, so I suggest testing any and all springs to make sure they are compatible. We even test the Isky's and Crower's just to be sure...Robert |
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#59
07-01-2007, 10:07 PM
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Ditto to Wheelspin
Same, 0 problems look elsewhere.
__________________
https://www.flickr.com/photos/197745168@N07/ "There's nothing more unsatisfying than watching an electric car go down the dragstrip." |
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#60
07-07-2007, 07:23 PM
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I was talking to my boss today about synthetic oil and he told me this:
He built an engine[BBC] for a guys boat. They dynoed it with the old Kendall green oil and then drained it and ran the same tests afterwards with Mobil One[because the owner was a Mobil One believer] and the engine lost 4 HP! The same customer argued with him that fuel injection would make more HP than a carburetor would. My boss built a Holley carb for it and it made 640 HP. They put on the badass fuel injection system and it made 617 HP. I talked to another man today that owns the dyno at our shop and also has Competition Fuel Systems, and he said he made several synthetic oil comparisons and said the synthetic never made more power and the only time he could actually tell a difference was in a Mazda rotary engine. It didn't make any more power either but he said the engine was slightly quiter. I mentioned to my freind with the 455 and he wants to make the comparison so I will find out first hand if it makes more power or not. Also, synthetic oil starts out as dino oil.
__________________
Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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