[Goatman]

Rodney, I tried, very nicely to end this last night on a good note, but some people just never want to stop. I usually don't get drawn into pissing matches either and again, if I have offended anyone here, I appologize. I do not lay down, nor will I roll over on my beliefs for anyone and yes, I recognize that there is room for differences of opinion on some topics.

If you start from the beggining, you will also see that I did not start this bashing, and in fact I was asked, by Will, what was the problem I had with the Q-jets. I answered and all of a sudden, I've got a bunch of people telling me I don't know what I'm saying and the only reason I don't like Q-jets is because I must have "screwed one up" at some time. I don't appriciate THAT kind of attitude either. I want everyone to get along, I really do. If you see some of my other posts, you'll realize I care about the hobby and am willing to help out in any way I can.

I will be damned if I will work as hard as I do and travel as much as I travel, out of my own pocket sometimes, and then have to sit back and listen to how I don't know anything and I must not be good at my job.

Sometimes people need a place to relieve their stresses and apparently, there were a few of us here over this weekend who used this forum and this topic to do so. It was niether professional nor polite and again, for the third time, I appologize to any who were offended. I hope we can all put this little side step behind us and move on together. Even the tightest families fight from time to time.

And by the way, I NEVER mentioned what I do for the government. Nor could/would I ever. As I stated, my project has a Secret classification and I revealed what I could about it, without being too specific, since my qualifications and talents were being questioned. It is safe to assume that whatever it is that you think I do, I do not. No one could, not from the information I have provided.

Thanks for bringing this to a more pleasant end.

[This message has been edited by Goatman (edited 08-26-2001).]

[KS circutguy]

Goatman,I too am a little ticked off at your response to Karls statements..

You have NO knowledge of the mans tuning skills,or accomplishments all he has said is true.He is one of the most respected and dedicated racers I have seen here in the Pacific Northwest..
He is ALWAYS ready to help or answer questions anyone has,and without the annoying flames that this board has suddenly been over taken with..

To say Qjets are junk and back it up with "Just look and see what everyone else is running at the track" is a real 'scientific' minds response..

Give me a break will ya..

Karl is one guy who does R@D and finds ways to run FASTER by putting the money where it will do the most good..

Besides,if you want to run like everyone else do the same **** they do..BUT to beat em' takes someone without blinders on..
geeeeeeezzzz,can we start helping people on this board,instead of ripping at em! Steve. http://photo.starblvd.net/zanko20

[This message has been edited by KS circutguy (edited 08-26-2001).]

[Hot Rod]

Goatman,
My point exactly and it's obvious that you understand what I ment! Thanks and remember this sometime's it's better to put up and shut-up than keep on killing the same dead horse! LOL!!!! And I did not mean that you told us what you did it's just that fact that there is any secret at all that's what I ment! There was no creditably issue here at all, I race and I have used many forms of carburation and have learned how to tune them, but the fact remains that it's has more to do with application more than anything else as you will know! They all have there querks and I probably have had most of them with all of them.

Thank you for not being offended because the post was never ment to offened!

Piece and a little on the side!

Rodney

[Poncho64]

Damn cant we all grow up.

I have an edelbrock on my 59 Chevrolet
I have a quadra jet on my 454 1 ton truck
I have a holley on my 64 GTO
and I have a real old fashioned original carter on my 66 tempest and you know what.
EVERYONE OF THEM GETS ME DOWN THE ROAD AND THE TRACK AN NEVER FAILS ME!!!
I am sure I could go out there and switch them around and they would all run pretty much the same! Unless your running balls to the wall all out willing to sell your soul for a 100th of a second racing then I dont think it really matters which one you use as long as it is not too big to small or in some other way just totally WRONG for your combination, The people that have problems with Holleys are the ones that put 850 double pumpers on stock 326 and the people that hate quadrajets are the ones that spent 5000 on there motor an then went to Advance Auto and bought the $80 off the shelf quadrajet. I think this whole thing has been dumb, just my 2 cents! By the way just for the record my preference is QUADRAJET all the way baby!!!

[71 T/A]

I never asked which carb is better. I asked for opinions on what is right for my application. While it seems both Q-jets and Holleys would work, has anyone used the 850 RPM Q-jet I'm using? What were your results?
If you went from that to a Holley, what improvements if any occurred?

I've heard that Jim Hand and Mike Noun have switched from Q-jets to Holleys. How are you guys runnig after the switch?

[Goatman]

Here was my entire line of thought from begining to end. I have a very limited time to catch up to the fastest Pontiac racers in the country, before I will just get too far behind. In order to accelerate my time tables, I had to make certain decisions early on. One of those happened to be induction and carberation. I do not have time, nor the desire to learn both.

My first step was to take manuals from each carb type and look at both of them to see which one would be easiest to tune at the track. The Q-jet is by far the more complex unit, requiring total dissasembly just to change the jets. One point for the Holley.

My second step was to look at cfm ratings and intake availability to decide which carb had more options, without running a spacer. I knew I was going to need a Victor for this, my first motor, so another point went to the Holley.

I then went to the track and talked to racers who had cars similar to mine, but faster, no matter what brand of car they drove and asked questions concerning both carberators. The answers I got scored another point for the Holley. A secondary point I gleaned from these conversations was that if something went wrong and I needed a part or tuning advice, I knew that there would always be someone at the track who could help me. The same could not be said of the Q-jet.

The decision then made itself for me and I would think for others who would be in the same boat as myself.

KS, you have no knowledge of me or my accomplishments, so I guess you can just simply choose me to be the ignorant one. You're simply sticking up for someone you have met. I didn't start these attacks, there are just too many guys out there who can't accept another persons opinion because they are considered an "unknown". I will not appologize for that.

I hang out with guys who drive 8 second, 3500 lb street legal cars all the time. Being around cars of the caliber has influenced me tremendously and I have learned more from watching and helping them than I could in a hundered liftimes at a Pontiac meet----so far. I'm not saying that the guys and girls here are without knowledge, quite the contrary, when it comes to Pontiac knowledge, this place has the best and brightest, but no one here has gone that fast in a totally legal 10.5" tire street car. Actually, I know there a a few who have gone that fast, but I have not yet met them here.

I will keep giving my opinions, and if no one takes them, oh well. At least I tried.

[KS circutguy]

How much you wana bet,ask Blackgto,call Portland International Raceway and ask the tower they know the car Karl B. runs..
And I did'nt just meet Karl,he's been a friend for 3yrs.
Thats what kills me about guys like you,anyone can get a race car running 8's.But to get a real radial tired {not a DOT stickey drag tire} 3700lbs.car with a low stall 2200rpm converter,and 3.73 gear that he has driven from Portland,Or. to Hot August nights and still run deep 11's at 116mph..With no bottle,slicks OR E-heads inpresses me greatly.And thats something even the 'secret service' could'nt figure out.lol
The guy would put you on the trailer,and then drive home.lol
By the way its carburetor.hehehe

[KS circutguy]

Is this the 'secret' project Goatmans working on.lol www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/

[Goatman]

Thanks again for proving my point. Not only is Karl an immature cry baby, but so are some of his friends.

3700lbs running 11's. He wouldn't be able to even see my taillights. Ayone can get a 3500 lb car into the 8's. Where's yours?

[This message has been edited by Goatman (edited 08-27-2001).]

[71 T/A]

I can't believe how personal this has become.
Let's stick to Q-jets vs. Holleys, okay?
Not Hatfields vs. McCoys.

[KS circutguy]

Goatman,He'd tree your ass and run his dial and put you on the trailer..
Anyone can run 8's all it takes is $$$$$..
But to tune @ run a car to run like Karls takes skills you don't have..Touchole'

[Goatman]

If you knew me at all, KS, that might bother me. You'll have to do better than that. I'm not sure you got past the fourth grade, so you probably don't know much more.

Exactly how far do you have your head up your buddies wazoo? Can you count that high?

[Old Man Taylor]

Just a few objective, and helpful, excerpts from Goatman's posts: "Anything will be an improvement over a Q-junk"; “who cares about street-ability”; “Q-junks have their place, it’s called the trash barrel. Q-junks use technology that is 40 years old”; “Stick to going slow and changing metering rods if you like. Those who know, are the ones who go”; “This is the racing section, where YOU posted this topic, Q-junks have no place here”.
I don't know about everyone else, but I certainly learned a lot. I think in management training they refer to the above style as aggressive communication rather than assertive communication. That style elicits the responses that followed.


------------------
Jim

[KS circutguy]

Good one Jim T.

[Goatman]

OMT, I find it interesting that you chose only my comments, out of context I might add, and left all of your buddies' earth shattering revalations out. Real slick.

You have proved nothing.

KS, get a life.

I'm done with this post. I didn't want to leave this post on a negative note, but of course, every fourth grader in the world has to come out and make beer jokes about what was at one time a serious topic. You have neither proven anything to me, nor impressed me. All you have done is shown myself and countless others how uneducated and immature you can all be. Hope your happy.

[Old Man Taylor]

Goatman - Your style elicited the responses you received. To give yourself a better appreciation of how your posts felt to others reverse the Q-junk/Holley descriptions and read it like someone posted it to you. I don't know why you would have expected any other types of responses than what followed. Yet your continuing input is to complain about everyone else’s responses. I am assuming you just had a bad weekend and took it out on the board. If so, I hope it provided you with some therapy.

[Old Man Taylor]

Goatman – I have no “buddies” on this board. I also don’t believe I have any enemies on this board. The purpose of this board is the free exchange of information and experience for all of us to offer or learn from. Belittling or berating the people or their ideas does not seem to me to be the purpose of this board. That is a big difference from the old board to this one. At this point I would like to see this post pulled, but it goes on because you refuse to recognize the aggressive communication style you used throughout. I am sure you have good information and experience to provide to others on this board, but IMHO it should be in a more constructive (assertive) rather than aggressive style. If you refuse to accept that, so be it. I think the Lobby is intended for that style of communication. If you do not understand the difference between assertive and aggressive communication, I would be glad to take this discussion off of the board.

PS: My daytime e-mail is JimTaylor@sc.slr.com

------------------
Jim


[This message has been edited by Old Man Taylor at home (edited 08-27-2001).]

[GTO Karl]

Goatman:

Your post from 8-27 at 9:53am was all I was asking for.

You gave a thoughtful description of how and why you made the choice of Holley over Qjet.

You communicated your point without the aggressive and negative attitude that I took exception too.

Had you posted this way the first time, we might have had a very thoughtful, insightful, and educational discussion of the possible ways we might have helped 71 T/A.

I did not mean for my friend to jump into this to defend me, or to raise the level of argument. I just wanted you to describe why and how you came to your conclusions, without having to berate others points of view.

Steve, its time to stop. Its getting to personal. I did not want this to be a personal attack on someone we don't know, in any other way, than what we do know. What we know, was how Goatman posts, my attack was pointed directly at his posting style.

Goatman, what set me off was that in your profile you said you were a research scientist. Perhaps you are, I really have no reason to doubt you, except that your posting style will give scientists a bad name. A scientist, would have been trained in critical thinking, and understand the fallacy of using aggressive attacks on a product or person, to take attention away from the real question. This is the same tactic used so often in advertising, and more importantly, in political campaigns.

I'm not saying you did this deliberatly, only that this is the way your posts are coming across to many of us. You have shown yourself to be more than capable of writing posts in a more thoughful manner just today.

If you reread your posts, I hope you can see the difference. If you were to continue to post such as the one I am mentioning, then maybe we could learn something from each other, and help others along the way.

The last couple years, I built my car with a specific purpose, to run mid elevens on pump gas, on my street radials, and behave on the street like a 13 sec car. It has taken alot of testing and tuning to accomplish this task. Although there are literaly thousands of eleven second cars. Very few can do what I do and still run consistent enough to win rounds at the track. But it is not the only car I've owned, built, and raced. Also, I choose to use old parts because I like to do things myself, and I spend more time racing than working, so money is a big issue. I was smart enough when I had a good retail business, to purchase a house(w/enough down for a $405 mortgage payment), valve grinding equipment, a turret lathe, a cnc milling machine, and build a nice shop in my garage. However, I have less than $500 to my name, and that includes retirement. So I can't just throw money at my projects, I have to think them through very carefully, and spend my money wisely, and educate myself thouroughly. A problem, I suspect, shared by many who visit this board.

I propose a truce.

I would like to hear your opinions, and since I did read all your posts, yes I can see how you have indeed posted with the intent to be helpfull. But it has been overshadowed by much of what you have said in other posts.

I believe I have many skills and much knowledge, about topics pertinent to this board, and I enjoy helping people to learn, and to dispell myths and wives tales that so permeate this hobby.

I welcome your input as well, Goatman, just please try and keep it more like the post I have been talking about. Not that its up to me, this is, afterall, your board too.

I apologize for having started this.

Karl

['ol Pinion head]

Goatman, Obviously many board members & longtime tuners must be wrong about Q-jets & Holleys as the local jmokes at your track "all running" Holleys can't be wrong.

For all of us that have tuned on Q-jets & quite a few Holleys, I take offense to the Q-junk image you're trying to forward.

Yeah, It real hard taking an airhorn off a Q-jet to swap out the jets &/or primary metering rods. I know, I've accomplished this R & R before in under 20 min's on the vehicle with the engine warm.

The main problem, I have noticed with those that "messed with" cheap Holley's in the past & then have tried to "mess with" Q-jet's is they have no patience to learn. Since they have no patience to learn, they cuss the Q-jet & cast it off as something worthless. Same no patience, it takes to pull a Pontiac motor & throw in a Chebbie. Bet there's quite a few of those at your track too.

[GTO Karl]

71 T/A:

This time I will actually try to answer your question.

I do not believe at the level of performance you are at, that a change in carb will make a significant difference. I have run 118 mph with a basically stock 800 cfm Qjet on a Victor Dominator manifold. Most of the mods to my carb were for idle quality improvements for the cam I am running(about 10 degrees larger than yours).

I don't think a Holley would hurt, perhaps a well built one might run slightly better, but I think you could spend your money elsewhere. Your mph is in line with the et you are running, however, you have not mentioned whether you have a traction problem, or what your 60fts are.

Also, how much timing are you running, and what jets and metering rods are in the carb now? What altitude is the track you are running at?

Karl