[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dutch injun:
"Man, why is it that every 3 months or so this same argument pops up? "

Because I think there IS a big market for a forged crank Brian. No use in comparing everything to Chevy. Why do you keep saying there is no volume in the Pontiac market? There are numerous aftermarket heads and blocks out pretty soon and you keep saying there's no market? We are all waiting in line to get one. Why are all your posts so negative lately??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm being a little negative I guess because there always seems to be those in our hobby that bemoan "why can't we have this" and "why can't we have that"...and every single one of them seems to be a "tire kicker". They piss and moan, but do they ever buy? Ray has a very poignant point about the 990 crank currently on EBAY.

How many people pissing and moaning about a new forged crank have already purchased other "big ticket" aftermarket items? Things like E-heads, for example? I'd be willing to bet they don't have a set. I'd be willing to even go farther out on a limb and say that most of these people have projects waiting for them to complete, for a multitude of reasons only they know.

"There is no market". Let me put this into a perspective that maybe you can understand. Companies are not going to spend a significant amount on R&D and "tooling up" costs if they do not think they will be able to not only make all of their money back, but make a substantial amount of profit as well. My direct comparison to Chevrolet holds alot of weight, because for every Pontiac enthusiast looking to purchase parts, there has to be 9 or 10 Chevy enthusiasts wanting to do the same. Companies can obviously make more profit pushing a product to a larger audience...Christ, even my 6 year old son realizes this. Perhaps if there were more Pontiac "buyers" and less "looky loos" (as Ray puts it), the ratio of Pontiac to Chevy would be 1 to 6, instead of 1 to 10?

And it's not just about cranks, either. It's about everything, and it's been going on for years. Edelbrock comes out with a head and someone with a 14 second Firebird says "man, we need a 500 cfm head that will fit d-port headers and only cost $1500 ready to bolt on". When will the dip*****ted insanity stop?

[dutch injun]

Brian, I hear what you're saying and I agree on the "tire kickers" 100%. Maybe they should stay in the restoration section of PY if there even is one. I still think this is useless to compare it to Chevy all the time, we gotta look at OURSELVES, screw the Chevy and let them shuv all their forged cranks up their gulus. You gotta look at the demand with us Pontiac people because it's a cost vs DEMAND issue. I know it's hugely expensive to tool up a forged crank for just a Pontiac, but I believe Tom V said some things with Olds could be shared, and there's another market right there. There is a HUGE demand!!! Imagine how many people would be interested in a bulletproof bottom end crate engine. Buying an IA2 block would make REAL sense then.There would be lots of new potential buyers thinking "hey now the sky's my blocks limit", and price will go down soon.It's the one last missing link! I already have the $ ready to buy an IA2 block blower combo ready that will be shooting for 800 plus HP, but the damn $2500 for a billet is where I draw the line. So I'm stuck with a cast crank then.....will that give me peace of mind at 7500 rpm? Then I might not do it at all. Of course I'm not tellin you anything you don't know, but a little more optimistic tone of voice would be nice.
Emailing Eagle is a good idea, will do that right away. Make mine a 3.75 stroke, 3" mains and I'll pay $ 1000,- for one.

[Brian Baker]

What? You want a kinder, gentler Mongo?

OK.

Not !!!

[crossbreed455]

Just got off the phone with Dave Crowler about Billet Cranks and there will be a surprise in about 2 weeks. (Low price) Talked to him on the phone about forged and said there is nothing in the works for them unless there would be a call for 200 or more and maybe he would think about it.

mike m.

[Bill Bolin]

Brian, I see your point.......to a point. It still remains that there are soon to be 3 aftermarket blocks and at least 4 aftermarket head manufacturers for traditional Pontiacs. I may not be a rocket scientist but if there is a market that proves worthy of someone investing in the tooling and setup involved in that, there is equally enough marketshare for cranks. I realize the limited market for a large combustion chamber aftermarket head will never be catered to for us blower guys but the cranks would be something any Pontiac guy (or gal) would be interested in. There are tire kickers in everything that costs money. Just walk into Circuit City and look at TV's or a Pontiac dealership and look at the 2004 GTO. That doesn't stop manufacturers from making TV's or new cars. Just my 2 cents.

[Brian Baker]

Only one aftermarket block...IA-II. The new aluminum block will also be an IA-II, marketted through Butler. KRE is the only one left, and my prediction will be that it will never happen, as the market will already be flooded with IA-II blocks (not to mention potential legal issues).

[rumair]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crossbreed 455:
Just got off the phone with Dave Crowler about Billet Cranks and there will be a surprise in about 2 weeks. (Low price) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

where will this announcement be made about the "low price"? i'm sure there will be a bunch of peeps all over that deal if it's true. are they still talking about a 6 month wait for one of their billets?

[Bill Bolin]

Brian.....you still see my point.

[Tom Vaught]

Just my opinion;

Back in the early 60s there was a need for a forged rod for the Pontiac. Pontiac did their home work and came up with a 58-62 forged connecting rod made out of average steel but they did not do a high Rockwell C heat treat
on it.

When Pontiac needed a better rod, the 421 SD rod, they took the time to do it right. People quickly figured out that the 63 SD rod was far superior to the 58-62 rod. Pontiac sold every set they had forged.

Pontiac, then, decided to build a third forged rod. It was made from inferior
steel, was not heat treated, and was worse than the 58-62 rod or a Pontiac CAST ROD built about the same time.

So here is where the forged crank deal comes in.

You might eventually get a forging (made in China) that will look like a forging, but could very likely be made out of impure material (dirty) even
though it is supposed to be 5140, 4140, or 4340 steel. This crank would then
be like the rubber rods where you had a forging but you did not have a good forging.

So you put your new "Forging" into a engine figuring that it will now be your
high HP crankshaft deal. How do you know it is better than a cast crank?

Only testing at high rpm will tell and you might be the lucky one whose crank survives or the unlucky whose expensive engine grenades! Food for thought!

Tom V.



and

[ventura7211]

To add to what Tom was said, at work last week we recieved a shipment of steel from a differant supplier than we have previously purchased steel from. It was said to be 5140 FWIW.

After the first bars were ran, the parts checked soft after the heat treat was performed, the suspect metal was sent to the metaluragy (sp...) lab and they did analysis comparing our other suppliers stock to the new stock, Yes they both were said to be 5140 but the new suppliers components in the metal were inferior to the previous suppliers. All of the new suppliers bar stock was sent back to them and a new shipment from the old supplier arrived on sunday night. This was just for a crank sprocket so imagine if your this was cranks and the one supplied was "soft" compared to what could be available.

[SLOW 77]

You would think there be enough of us out there to buy 200+ cranks, wouldn't there be? Or are they meaning they want 200 pre-paid for?

[Lloyd-TX]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PONTIAC DUDE:
The market to move volume would be for 4.250 & 4.500 cranks with 3" mains and BBC rod sizes.
Both would use the same 6.8 rod. All custom Pistons cost the same. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto, Dude.

Prolly need to see if a 4" stroke is feasible on the same raw forging. As I see it, there's a fairly large demand for that stroke as well.

[Robert C.]

Tom V.

There are 4 way to make a crank:
1. Cast N Cranks Nodular
2. Forged EN7 or 4140
3. Cnc Machined
4. Cast Steel 4150 Why are there none of these in the market? Did Ford try this process? Please fill me in.

10 % of the quality of a cast crank is the mold
90% is the casting house and the gating and material used. Gasing is the hardest problem to over come.

[GOAT8U2]

The GN 3.8 is not the same motor that comes in the other Regal 3.8's, so that Eagle crank will ONLY work in those few GN's. That number is not high and they STILL made it, along with rods and maybe a stroker crank coming soon.

ALL of the TA blocks have been sold and they are taking orders on new batches. "5/12/04 The second run of blocks are being machined NOW, and should be available to ship late June/July"

The Eagle crank will work in both blocks and will most likely be the prefered crank instead of getting good or new stockers in regular rebuilds. If Eagle was willing to make one for the GN crowd, they should of been in here long ago.

Its good to here that Crower will have a cheaper billet out there, but I do not understand all the super high end cranks made available yet not the more practical cranks that would out sell them 5:1?

Is there a vendor willing to help Eagle out, or even a few vendors to push this into the market? Reassurance is powerful.

[ventura7211]

"ALL of the TA blocks have been sold and they are taking orders on new batches. "5/12/04 The second run of blocks are being machined NOW, and should be available to ship late June/July"

The Eagle crank will work in both blocks and will most likely be the prefered crank instead of getting good or new stockers in regular rebuilds. If Eagle was willing to make one for the GN crowd, they should of been in here long ago."

Maybe you just answered it for yourself. All the blocks made, sold. Maybe the GN guys will buy everything that's available as it become available? Maybe the blocks are sold before they are cast/machined? Maybe the GN group is a group who has buying power as they will spend the money for these items and buy amounts that make it possible to for the parts to be produced and sold at a reasonable cost?

I don't know all I know is I would *like* to see a forged crank, but am in no way able to afford or really to be honest have a need for one as of this date. In the future when I need a better than cast crank I will have to use what ever is available, if that is an old forged crank or a billet then that's what I'll have to do.

If you want to get the ball rolling on a forged crank, start taking orders, find people who will spend a reasonable amount of money on a crank like this lets say roughly $1000. See how many people you can find who would send the cash tomorrow, then go to the differant manufactors and say I have xxx amount of orders for a crank priced at xxx amount will you make this? See how they respond to that vs. "you know if you made a forged crank you could sell alot of them"

That's my thoughts on why the GN guys are getting this vs why we are not, but I'm making several assumptions primarly based on the knowledge that the GN guys I know will purchase items they want/need no matter what the price.

[crossbreed455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slow77ta:
You would think there be enough of us out there to buy 200+ cranks, wouldn't there be? Or are they meaning they want 200 pre-paid for? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

200 in one order and he might think about it but dave said most likely not unless they are not busy. There is not a real demand for these cranks for Dave he said, he would sell 50 chevy cranks to 1 pontiac if that. That all he said about them so I guess i will buy a billet and leave it at that, if i wait I will never get to race.


mike m.

[crossbreed455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
Only one aftermarket block...IA-II. The new aluminum block will also be an IA-II, marketted through Butler. KRE is the only one left, and my prediction will be that it will never happen, as the market will already be flooded with IA-II blocks (not to mention potential legal issues). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brain I say 50 bucks that the KRE will be out. They only have to machine the top of the motor. Jeff told me by chistmas but I will give him a couple of more months because of proplems that might come up with maching. Look at the IAII they took orders in APRIL and still took months before we could get a block.


mike m.

[crossbreed455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rumair:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crossbreed 455:
Just got off the phone with Dave Crowler about Billet Cranks and there will be a surprise in about 2 weeks. (Low price) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

where will this announcement be made about the "low price"? i'm sure there will be a bunch of peeps all over that deal if it's true. are they still talking about a 6 month wait for one of their billets? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I talked to Dave on wednesday about cranks for pontiacs and he was not really into a forged idea at all. But know to the billets, Dave told me to call in 2 weeks if a needed a crank because he was going to run alot of pontiac cranks(and said they would be around $1700.00 now if its true from dave I have no clue this was the first time I every talked to him). have to remember a billet blank is $400.00 bucks. I look at it this way we are not going to have a forged crank soon, unless someone with alot of money and time to put up on the table to do this then maybe. Look how long it took for a block.

Thanks Mike M.

[VCho455]

Several points
I'd bet that Crower would require the money up front for all (of whatever minumum they wanted), and you would have to market them yourself.

When was the last time you saw a race series based on the Pontiac engine we all love. The chevies and mopars are big circle track, road racing, and roundy round favorites. Buick V-6 engines are quite common in road racing and roundy round. These are the markets that drive the decisions on what products to build. Street cars and bracket racers do not make a manufacturer rich. Race class's where engine failures are common do. How many of the cranks that the others buy are rejects from some other race program the quality trickles down the the folks with the least purchasing power. Go to any nascar team, ask and they will tell you, they reject far more parts than they ever use. Where do you think they go?

And in conclusion if there is such a demand for Pontiac cranks, why aren't there more than 30 people contributing to this thread.

P.S. I want a forged 3" main crank with a 3" stroke good to 9000rpm.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"There are 4 way to make a crank:
1. Cast N Cranks Nodular
2. Forged EN7 or 4140
3. Cnc Machined
4. Cast Steel 4150 Why are there none of these in the market? Did Ford try this process? Please fill me in."

One more way Bob, the Moldex way:

Carve it out of a hunk of billet using non CNC
machines, custom "one off" fixtures, and years
and years of experience making and grinding
cranks for everyone in the business one crank
at a time.


I talked to a crank guy today and he told me I
should talk to our materials people about your
question.

Tom V.