[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Like you said, if the guy was sick, he could have missed it. Even healthy its an easy mistake to make with a multi-way timing set. That's the importance of keeping build notes and build sheets. If I get hit by a bus, there are notebooks in my shop and excel spreadsheets on my computer that show how my recent engines were done.

The work he did after installing the set was also very precise.

I didn't get to visit his shop. The family was grieving and I'm a few hundred miles away. They sent a lot of stuff along with the car. I have a thick binder of all the notes. Nothing mentioned about timing. It looks like the job went well.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

No one knows it all, circle yourself with those more knowledgeable than yourself to learn.

Unclear...TDC was correct, or did you have to make new reference point?

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

No one knows it all, circle yourself with those more knowledgeable than yourself to learn.

Unclear...TDC was correct, or did you have to make new reference point?

The mark on the balancer is where it's supposed to be. No funny business going on with that. I'll compare the timing chain set later today to see if it matches the new one being shipped.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

😎
Maybe elementary to you ....but I’ll ask;
Your sure crank was on TDC thruout all your cam timing checks?

["QUICK-SILVER"]

The 455 I got to figure out and work on was built by a famous East Coast engine builder. The whole engine was a work of art, other than cam timing.
I rememberd his name from when I was a little kid. I thought he was an old man back then and surprised to hear he was still building engines in 1985 when the 455 came in the shop.

He wasn't the same man in 85 that he was when he was building winning race engines back in the 50's~60's.

Kinda sad, but at least he was still trying to do his best at something he loved to do.

"Old Age Happens"
Clay

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

😎
Maybe elementary to you ....but I’ll ask;
Your sure crank was on TDC thruout all your cam timing checks?

I didn't degree the cam that was in it. I will be doing checks on the new one.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

The 455 I got to figure out and work on was built by a famous East Coast engine builder. The whole engine was a work of art, other than cam timing.
I rememberd his name from when I was a little kid. I thought he was an old man back then and surprised to hear he was still building engines in 1985 when the 455 came in the shop.

He wasn't the same man in 85 that he was when he was building winning race engines back in the 50's~60's.

Kinda sad, but at least he was still trying to do his best at something he loved to do.

"Old Age Happens"
Clay

The one like mine that had the marks off and fell on it's face at 3800 rpm?

Maybe these guys were doing something we don't understand and we assume they made a mistake. That's what I keep thinking. But I can't find anyone who understands it. Maybe an old school trick that really doesn't work like it should for us because we don't understand it?

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

I know you didn’t, speaking of working off dots triangles etc.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

I know you didn’t, speaking of working off dots triangles etc.

Kinda thought you were messing with me. I'm on my best behavior so I answered like you were serious. People don't like it when I mess with them back. lol

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

The 455 I got to figure out and work on was built by a famous East Coast engine builder. The whole engine was a work of art, other than cam timing.
I rememberd his name from when I was a little kid. I thought he was an old man back then and surprised to hear he was still building engines in 1985 when the 455 came in the shop.

He wasn't the same man in 85 that he was when he was building winning race engines back in the 50's~60's.

Kinda sad, but at least he was still trying to do his best at something he loved to do.

"Old Age Happens"
Clay

You know Clay, when I moved the timing gear on the cam to line up the chain I had the distributor still in. The rotor didn't move very much at all. Not a big move.

What did you do to fix the 455? Did you degree the cam to make sure it wasn't some sort of custom grind that made it work better with the marks not lined up?

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

I’m not messin with you, ain’t nobody got time for that. If I was there would’ve a big grin emoji with it!!
Simply a yes or no question.... still unanswered.

If your going to you tube to see how, why to degree a cam It seems it’s new to you?
All of this is to put the cam to TDC relationship where the cam manufacturer ...or you want it,....and be SURE it’s there.
Allows you to accurately compare what others are doing, same with timing with a light.
I don’t think there was some trick deal going on, Those multiindex sets were new then ...Ithink, I know we got lots of calls and comebacks when we sold block kits, often to find what it appears happened here. or even further off that wouldn’t run.
Hard to determine the level your at, but definitely put the tube of RTV down or use way less ...or your going to have a oil pickup full!
😎
Study from reliable sources on cam timing logic.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

You know Clay, when I moved the timing gear on the cam to line up the chain I had the distributor still in. The rotor didn't move very much at all. Not a big move.

What did you do to fix the 455? Did you degree the cam to make sure it wasn't some sort of custom grind that made it work better with the marks not lined up?

After checking valve events during overlap I knew the cam was installed wrong. (posted directions for checking yours with the engine together).

Tore it down and set the gears/chain dots up and verified valve events during overlap by marking the balancer. Used the balancer like a mini degree wheel. Did that before putting the timing cover back. Used a piece of coat hanger and a short bolt to make a pointer. Middle timing cover bolt hole held the pointer just right for the balancer's O.D..

It took major carb tweaking, mixture screws and idle speed, for it to run at idle. Valve events happening at the wrong time had adjustments way off.

Picture intake valve opening happened early in the exhaust stroke instead of where it should have been during overlap. Exhaust pressure kept all the fuel/air from going in during intake. The exhaust pressure made the carb moan loud and stopped the engine from reving. Where the engine should have been making peak torque...It was starved for fuel/air and couldn't rev any higher.

Nothing custom about this. Just a mistake by the builder.

That help explain.. I wasn't trying to argue or be stubborn earlier in the thread. Just trying to get you to understand.
Clay

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

I know you didn’t, speaking of working off dots triangles etc.

Yes I did, and that was it..
That gear set had symbols instead of +/- numbers.

The ownner wasn't local and I didn't get to see directions till he came to pick the car up. Three keyways, I think, but multiple dots on gear teeth to set cam timing several different ways. Like 2° to 4° in either direction. The combination that got used during build had the cam way off. Like some 30° crank off.

Engine ended up being a screamer once I got it straightened out.

Clay

[NeighborsComplaint]

#21

Originally Posted by TAQuest

The cam swap sounds interesting. As Steelcity mentioned, the RPM might be a problem with clearance on the ram air.

I drove it last summer. It would pull good up until about 5000K and then it just runs out of pull. It's just not as quick and fast as it should be. All the parts in the build check out. Compression test shows good compression. I'm going to look a little closer at the timing and the distributor.

#24

Originally Posted by TAQuest

Took it out for a test and tune.
Added another bottle of 108 octane booster. Runs great up to 3200 RPM then it quits pulling. Some definite malfunction. Just don't know what it is. Everything is new. The whole fuel system is new. I switched the fuel pump again and did a volume test. Plenty of fuel. I tried adjusting the timing, didn't change the running out of pull at 3200. All I can think of is the distributor. I have had a lot of nice old Pontiacs and never had one built like this be such a dog. It gives hints of great power up to 3200 but that's it.

So what did you change between Post#21 and Post#24 ?

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

#21

#24

So what did you change between Post#21 and Post#24 ?

But a more restictive exhaust system would have shot it in the foot.

Clay

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

After checking valve events during overlap I knew the cam was installed wrong. (posted directions for checking yours with the engine together).

Tore it down and set the gears/chain dots up and verified valve events during overlap by marking the balancer. Used the balancer like a mini degree wheel. Did that before putting the timing cover back. Used a piece of coat hanger and a short bolt to make a pointer. Middle timing cover bolt hole held the pointer just right for the balancer's O.D..

It took major carb tweaking, mixture screws and idle speed, for it to run at idle. Valve events happening at the wrong time had adjustments way off.

Picture intake valve opening happened early in the exhaust stroke instead of where it should have been during overlap. Exhaust pressure kept all the fuel/air from going in during intake. The exhaust pressure made the carb moan loud and stopped the engine from reving. Where the engine should have been making peak torque...It was starved for fuel/air and couldn't rev any higher.

Nothing custom about this. Just a mistake by the builder.

That help explain.. I wasn't trying to argue or be stubborn earlier in the thread. Just trying to get you to understand.
Clay

Really clear that they had exactly the same symptoms. Thanks.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

#21

#24

So what did you change between Post#21 and Post#24 ?

I was guessing the first time, post #21 and don't usually look at the tach much. The second time, post #25, I didn't guess because I had taken it for a test drive with video on the tach(posted that video).
I think it's worse now because of the cold air? I know I could go faster than 65 last summer. Maybe 80.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Yes I did, and that was it..
That gear set had symbols instead of +/- numbers.

The ownner wasn't local and I didn't get to see directions till he came to pick the car up. Three keyways, I think, but multiple dots on gear teeth to set cam timing several different ways. Like 2° to 4° in either direction. The combination that got used during build had the cam way off. Like some 30° crank off.

Engine ended up being a screamer once I got it straightened out.

Clay

I figured out how a person could get the timing set exactly how it was on my engine.

There's a dot above the crank keyway. He lined up that dot with the dot on the cam gear.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

I’m not messin with you, ain’t nobody got time for that. If I was there would’ve a big grin emoji with it!!

Hard to determine the level your at, but definitely put the tube of RTV down or use way less ...or your going to have a oil pickup full!
😎
.

Just bought three tubes.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

looks to me like like he aligned the dot on the keyway instead of the tooth, to the cam on the original install.

Your silly(cone)