[carcrazy]

I've been happy with my "Champion" in my 629/600 HP, 67 GTO. Had it for around 5 years and keeps temps around 190 at worst case.

[MUSLCAH]

Last year I removed my original 4 core Harrison Rad......and sent it to Classic Rad in Long Island NY.....they installed a more efficient core ....more tube and fins per square inch....Looks Stock ! And keeps my stock 67 GTO right on the 195 thermostat ......and cooler while moving...very Happy....no more 220 at the stop light !

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by MUSLCAH

Last year I removed my original 4 core Harrison Rad......and sent it to Classic Rad in Long Island NY.....they installed a more efficient core ....more tube and fins per square inch....Looks Stock ! And keeps my stock 67 GTO right on the 195 thermostat ......and cooler while moving...very Happy....no more 220 at the stop light !

That is really the best way to go. Facts show copper radiators cool better than aluminum.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

That is really the best way to go. Facts show copper radiators cool better than aluminum.

Totally honest question: If this is true, why do you suppose copper went out of favor for aluminum as the OEM material of choice decades ago?

Info I've found HERE claims the differences between the two may be a wash.

Copper-Brass Construction
- Built with narrower tubes due to weaker metal
- Uses more rows of tubes (three or four rows) resulting in thicker, heavier core
- Less air flow through core and reduced surface contact between tubes and fins
- Lead/tin solder used produces mixed metal core
- Heat transfer ability reduced due to solder

Aluminum Construction
- Built with wider tubes thanks to metal’s strength
- Uses fewer rows of tubes (one or two rows) resulting in thinner, lightweight core
- Better air flow through core and more surface contact between tubes and fins
- Brazing process produces all aluminum core
- Uniform heat transfer due to all aluminum core

The end result is both type of radiators will cool about the same. Aluminum allows for a better designed radiator with uniform heat transfer where as copper-brass has to use smaller tubes due to it being weaker and the solder as well as the reduced air flow through the radiator further limits its cooling ability.

[Chief of the 60's]

Aluminum is obviously cheaper than copper. However, copper-brass conducts heat considerably better than aluminum does.

[ZeGermanHam]

From what I'm reading, that doesn't appear to tell the whole story, though. The website I linked to above explains that although copper as a raw material has an advantage over aluminum in terms of thermal conductivity, the advantage is essentially nullified because copper is a weaker metal. This means more tubes are required, which leads to less tube/fin contact, a thicker core, and ultimately less airflow compared to an aluminum radiator. The thermal conductivity of the raw material (copper vs. aluminum) is only one piece of the puzzle. The differences in radiator design that are afforded by each type of metal cannot be left out of the discussion.

It seems that copper = good thermal conductivity but poor design due to weaker metal. Aluminum = less thermal conductivity but superior (i.e., more efficient) design due to stronger metal. The debate will likely continue for ages.

[dataway]

Wonder how the old 1950's honeycomb copper radiators fit into the mix. Used in the old Dodge Power Wagons. I've heard they were highly sought after by drag racers due to their efficiency. Totally different design than is used these days.

[MUSLCAH]

Let’s see what kind of shape an Aluminum radiator is in 50 years........only time will tell

[70GS455]

And aluminum is lighter, helps with the OEM's corporate fuel economy

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

[Lee]

Originally Posted by MUSLCAH

Let’s see what kind of shape an Aluminum radiator is in 50 years........only time will tell

The BeCool in my Cutlass is about 20 years old, and still works great.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Lee

The BeCool in my Cutlass is about 20 years old, and still works great.

Yeah, the durability of aluminum is not a factor. They've been putting aluminum radiators in cars for over 30 years now. Copper is the weaker if the two metals anyhow.

[Lee]

I got my Cold Case installed yesterday.

With the factory radiator, tecps were going over 210 on the highway during a lunchtime cruise.

A few hours later, with ambient temps at least 5-degrees warmer, I cruised the highway at 192.

[Stripes]

We installed a Cold Case radiator in our 69 firebird with a stockish 469 and turbo 400 transmission, 3:55 gears. Before we had a 4 core brass OE radiator that was in good shape, factory fan, shroud, baffle panels and chin panels, flowcooler water pump clearanced tight to a stainless backing plate.

The 4 core brass radiator on a 95F day would run 190F up to about 50 mph. Above 50 mph, it would start climbing to 230F. AT 70 mph, 3300 rpm it would heat up fast. With the same fan, pump, etc, and only a radiator change the Cold Case drops the temps significantly. With the same 160F thermostat, it runs about 170 below 50 MPH. At 70 mph it rises to 190-195F.

These temps are from a recently installed SW temp gauge. I see many use a temp light that doesn't come on until 245F and they say their car runs "cool" all the time. I found two crowds when researching how hot other peoples cars run. One group that often said they never had a temp issue with their car had a temp light or old tiny factory gauge showing H & C, and the ones who struggle to get everything just right with accurate temp gauges.

Painted black with factory stamped tanks the Cold Case looks very stock under the shroud. It fit very well with three minor issues. One hole had to be drilled in the mounting bracket as mine is an AC car, the fan shroud clip holder on the drivers side was about 1/2" too long and had to be trimmed, and the radiator sits about 3/4" further back from the core support due to the brackets (which has caused no issues).

[JLMounce]

One thing to note here. Everyone always looks at tubes, fins per inch etc. Very few people worry about the construction of those tubes and fins, or importantly the end tanks. There is a lot of cooling that occurs in the end tanks.

Aluminum is not better at transferring heat than brass is and so you have to compensate for that when going to an aluminum radiator. So you really have to focus on construction and getting as much surface area on the coolant as you can with aluminum. That of course is true also with brass since the fins aren't attached using brass, however because it's a more effective heat transfer medium, they just tend to work better in general.

You can run into those same build issues with aluminum where you're attaching fins with solder which doesn't conduct heat well. You've then taken a material that doesn't conduct heat as well and made the situation worse.

[george kujanski]

i also installed a cold case, and it cools better than a 3 row brass that was in there. I think the better cooling comes from the use of larger tubes resulting in more coolant flow. I don't have factual evidence, but that is what I suspect.

In previous posts, I wonder if the statements that aluminum is a 'stronger" metal than copper (brass is used in radiators which is an alloy of copper) is true.
Also in the comparison, the statement is made that brazing is used resulting in an all-aluminum core. Brazing is attachment of metals using a third metal, so this statement doesn't make sense. I've done brazing on steel using oxy-acetylene and brass filler rod.

Aluminum is not solderable either....solder (used to be lead/tin alloy) just does not work with aluminum.

George

[JLMounce]

Yeah, I have no idea how they are attaching the fins to the tubes in aluminum radiators, but it's the common point at that intersection that can cause loss of heat dissipation over the fin. It's why brass radiators aren't 10 fold better than aluminum, because you miss out on complete transference in how the fins are attached to the tubes.

But you're probably right about the larger tubes. Not only would they allow more coolant flow, but they will also have a larger surface area. My understanding is that heat transference from liquid to the conducting metal happens instantaneously, so increasing flow would seem to be beneficial.

FWIW I still run my factory brass radiators. My bird was an original AC car, so it got the bigger rad along with the upper and lower closeouts. on 95+ degree days, cruising at around 3500 rpm it stays at about 195. It'll soak a bit coming into town up to about 200, but will then fall back to around 193-195. Has the factory shroud and a crappy flex fan.

[Hikin Mike]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Yeah, I have no idea how they are attaching the fins to the tubes in aluminum radiators, but it's the common point at that intersection that can cause loss of heat dissipation over the fin. It's why brass radiators aren't 10 fold better than aluminum, because you miss out on complete transference in how the fins are attached to the tubes.

But you're probably right about the larger tubes. Not only would they allow more coolant flow, but they will also have a larger surface area. My understanding is that heat transference from liquid to the conducting metal happens instantaneously, so increasing flow would seem to be beneficial.

FWIW I still run my factory brass radiators. My bird was an original AC car, so it got the bigger rad along with the upper and lower closeouts. on 95+ degree days, cruising at around 3500 rpm it stays at about 195. It'll soak a bit coming into town up to about 200, but will then fall back to around 193-195. Has the factory shroud and a crappy flex fan.

Lucky you. My car was an AC car, so I have the same equipment as you but using a brand new factory 7-blade fan. Last week it was around 95 degrees and in town I went to 220. On the highway (55mph @ ~2500rpm) it want back to 195-200-ish.

[Stripes]

The weirdest thing in this hobby is sometimes you can rationalize why the 4 core brass or the 4 core aluminum or this or that would be better. You can add up the tube diameters, consider the core thickness, tube spacing, gravity, rotation effect from the moon, amount of krypton in the solder, etc... BUT until you install it and run it you don't REALLY know who is stretching their facts to sell radiators, or who has the most efficient one. I find Searguns post VERY helpful as he has actually tried all 3. I got lucky and picked mine based on the reviews I had read. I'm not always lucky and have an extra set of shocks and other car parts to prove it.

[Hikin Mike]

Originally Posted by Stripes

We installed a Cold Case radiator in our 69 firebird with a stockish 469 and turbo 400 transmission, 3:55 gears. Before we had a 4 core brass OE radiator that was in good shape, factory fan, shroud, baffle panels and chin panels, flowcooler water pump clearanced tight to a stainless backing plate.

The 4 core brass radiator on a 95F day would run 190F up to about 50 mph. Above 50 mph, it would start climbing to 230F. AT 70 mph, 3300 rpm it would heat up fast. With the same fan, pump, etc, and only a radiator change the Cold Case drops the temps significantly. With the same 160F thermostat, it runs about 170 below 50 MPH. At 70 mph it rises to 190-195F.

These temps are from a recently installed SW temp gauge. I see many use a temp light that doesn't come on until 245F and they say their car runs "cool" all the time. I found two crowds when researching how hot other peoples cars run. One group that often said they never had a temp issue with their car had a temp light or old tiny factory gauge showing H & C, and the ones who struggle to get everything just right with accurate temp gauges.

Painted black with factory stamped tanks the Cold Case looks very stock under the shroud. It fit very well with three minor issues. One hole had to be drilled in the mounting bracket as mine is an AC car, the fan shroud clip holder on the drivers side was about 1/2" too long and had to be trimmed, and the radiator sits about 3/4" further back from the core support due to the brackets (which has caused no issues).

That's my next step and going for the Cold Case too.

[george kujanski]

I chose the cold case since my 455 with the 3 row was not staying cool. Rather than get a typical 4 row brass (as in original equip with a 455), i figured since spending $ anyway might as well try out the aluminum per others' recommendation. Don't know how it would compare to the 4 row brass, don't have one to compare, but the cold case does the job!

George