[MikeNoun]

The "dual hood tachs" look was in the original performance brochure, but didn't make production. It was supposed to be a 350 H.O. only feature. One nacelle was a hood tach, the passenger side nacelle was for ram air, and was hollow. A hose was connected from the hollow nacelle to the air cleaner snorkel.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Diego

I thought the ET was common knowledge? Sure, it's a prototypical Judge but it's not a Judge prototype.

According to Pontiac it was, who's saying it's not?

[The Boss]

Those are great pictures Mike - somebody needs to build one of these!

['ol Pinion head]

Never liked the extra hood pod/ air inlet of the ET concept, it just looked hokey. Have always liked the usage of the lightweight post Tempest in this concept, but as Chris noted the '69 chrome nose isn't near as clean looking as the '68 chrome bumper/grilles.

A performance built '69 Tempest 2 door post assembled with a GTO hood & a '68 chrome nose would look real clean, but would be sure to elicit a bunch of "why did you do that"s

[MikeNoun]

I agree that the dual hood tach look is a bit hokey. I think Pontiac was trying to take advantage of their whole "Ram Air" marketing campaign at this point, as the term "Ram Air" had become extremely popular by 1969. The extra hood tach nacelle seemed like a last minute attempt at getting some sort of Ram Air onto the A-body and F-body models that used a flat hood. It never made production, but apparently it went far enough in the product planning stages that they used it in their promotional material at the beginning of the year.

[Judge273]

Originally Posted by The Boss

According to Pontiac it was, who's saying it's not?

According to JW "Glory Days" book :

ET was the first concept vehicle put together by the Ad-Hoc commitee, and in a hour presentation with JD it was scraped big time!

The Second concept presented as the "Ultimate GTO". Presented to JD and he was happy...So happy he named it "The Judge".

[Diego]

Originally Posted by The Boss

According to Pontiac it was, who's saying it's not?

How can it be a Judge prototype when it's not a Judge? It's a prototype for the ET, which was an embryonic version of the Judge.

Right?

[north]

The problem with the 350 HO was pricing, there just wasn't enough room between the 2bbl 350 and a GTO. The minute they tried to add extra content (air scoop etc) the price would rub against the GTO. And without that extra content a 350HO car was invisible as were the sales.

First the GTO, then the Judge-TA were leaders in the move from stand alone high perf engines (like a 421 HO Catalina) towards complete packages like all modern hi-po cars today.

The funny thing in the 60's is they were just learning that... They thought they needed to keep the price down when in reality most buyers would have paid much more to get a complete package.

The perfect example is the TA in the 70's. They sold as well as the GTO did in the 60's despite having a massively higher price differential than the GTO had over the regular model. A GTO cost about 10% more than a base LeMans but the TA was 30-50% higher than a base bird.

[Judge273]

Not really sure what your saying about 70s TA outsellling GTOs? But, I think I understand your point.

It was also mentioned in the JW book.

The committee first thought they were put together to brainstorm a vehicle to compete with the success of the 68 RR, as it was thought to be doing well as a low priced car.

Then, after the ET failed they realized it was the well-optioned RR's that did well. The Judge package was put on GTO based on that concept and it was a success. People like to bundle...

[Diego]

Not sure I think of the Judge as a bundle. I see it as more of a muscle car loaded for bear, much like a Hurst/Olds and Cyclone Spoiler, all of which were bespoilered and striped supercars.

Regarding John's comparison with the T/A, I understand what he means - the loaded for bear Firebird was selling like hotcakes in the late-1970s, and perhaps it exceeded the sales of the 1966 GTO (but I'd have to look at numbers to know). The price differential between a regular Firebird and a Trans Am was much greater than a GTO and a Judge.

[The Boss]

Mike, I know it's in the book and is easy to read & quote but JW's memory of events has been questioned in the past & his accounts of certain events has been shown to be inaccurate on more than one occasion. Although it's a highly entertaining account of the 60's & 70's at Pontiac & GM, I'm not so sure I would hold Glory Days to the same standard as most other Non Fiction books.

Diego, as usual you are a stickler when it comes to semantics. I'm fairly certain those pictures Jeff posted were produced by Pontiac for promotional purposes - just like the other promotional posters we've posted here before. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

[Diego]

If Wangers can be wrong, why can't Pontiac?

After all, in one of their brochures they claim the first GP was in 1963.

I can't blame 'em for calling the ET a Judge prototype but I think it's not quite accurate. Do we know when the poster was created? I bet way after the GTO was discontinued.

[Judge273]

Chris and Diego, good to see you guys getting along nicely!

[The Boss]

The one with the airbrushed out door post, the power antenna & tall deck lid spoiler is unquestionably period Pontiac promotional, the front view I'm not so sure of.

Thanks Mike, I appreciate that. My therapist says I need to be more open to certain people. I tried it with Hobi & we talk a couple times a week now - who knows, Diego could be next.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I was always bewildered by the difference in the ET and what we actually got.

Was like it went from some lazy bums throwing a quicky together in an afternoon - to a group of guys who had their stuff together.

Think i understand more about that now.
The parameters and concepts changed - or the first guys had the wrong parameters to start with. sumpn like that

ET would have flopped much worse than the Rally 350 Olds

[MikeNoun]

And, ironically, it was Jim Wangers who was the driving force behind the 1970 Olds Rallye 350.

Not sure if it was mentioned in Wangers' book, but in another interview, Jim explains that Oldsmobile got the whole Hurst/Olds project after Pete Estes rejected the idea of a 1968 Hurst/Firebird.

Wangers, DeLorean, and George Hurst were all set to go forward with a 1968 Hurst/Firebird (with 428's under their hoods) when Estes said that they (Pontiac) were already selling enough Firebirds. Because they wanted help George Hurst get his name on a car, Estes suggested that Hurst go to Oldsmobile. Apparently, the Olds guys were still crying over not getting an F-body, and were eager to get a special car of their own. The rest is history.

[north]

It's a good leadership style... Let your managers and leaders put together different creative ideas. Create a competition of ideas, creative committies are good. But not committe decisions. Hear everyone out, be open to their ideas. But in the end the boss calls the final shot and has the ultimate responsibility.

God nows JD had more than his fair share of weaknesses but I believe he was a good leader in the 60's for Pontiac until his ego got the best of him...

[north]

Wangers was a car guy to the core and very creative but he needed someone to keep him in perspective. This shows in how effective he was with the great pontiac team of the 60's and how he was ineffective later on his own. Not everyone is a lone wolf.

[hobi]

Originally Posted by The Boss

The one with the airbrushed out door post, the power antenna & tall deck lid spoiler is unquestionably period Pontiac promotional, the front view I'm not so sure of.

Thanks Mike, I appreciate that. My therapist says I need to be more open to certain people. I tried it with Hobi & we talk a couple times a week now - who knows, Diego could be next.

Boss I thought I was your therapist.

[JLHarper]

A neighborhood car friend bought one of the Rally 350 Olds, fresh out of mil and enrolled in college FT ...he went from a Don Hardy built 350 LT1 Vega GT to "Ole Yello"..what we called him.

You could see one coming that's for sure.