[Pontirag]

wilmington, (DEL) plant made Impalas in the mid to late sixties. by the mid to late 70's both impalas and pontiacs came off the same line

whats FB mean?

[Keith Seymore]

FB = Fisher Body

K

[Safari Larry]

John, that's a boatload of good info. I added your codes to the list of observed codes.

That's certainly an interesting Pontiac you have with the early build. It gives some insight to when they started making engines.

Regarding the engine code, see also 1960 MPC 1959 Engine Identification Chart. That chart is similar to the one in the Shop Manual (dated February 1959) but with some differences. It would likely be most up-to-date. Comments in upper left tells about using a decal in early production and letter code on block for later production.

Note they used a "decal number" to identify the engine type but did NOT use it for standard engines. My guess is that the "C" stamped after your VIN identifies it a a "C" engine with Hydramatic, 10.5 compression and tri-power. If that is so, your heads should have an "X" stamped on one of the cast circular pads above the center exhaust port and next to the center head bolt. You would not have the cast iron headers as used on the 420A engines. If you do have the C engine, it was surely special ordered before production began. Perhaps that was before the 420A engine was available.

Regarding the "production engine number", in the Service Craftsman News article you referenced



the title is "'59 PRODUCTION ENGINE NUMBER IS RELOCATED". "Relocated" tells me it was moved from one place to another and I don't think it was a part of the decal. According to the engine chart, most early engines (all standard engines) did not have the decal -- as I understand it. Have you looked other places for an engine number such as down low next to water pump on passenger's side? My 56 engine has a number stamped there.

Interesting observation about A, D Pontiac assembly plant codes. I had assumed they were different plants. T was used for Arlington TX in '59 and A for the same plant in '60. Sometimes they just try to confuse us and are successful!

Thanks for "Body in White" info, sounds interesting.

[CATBIRD]

Larry.....I've searched all over the front of the engine, even behind the little coolant hoses. There is not a number to be found, other than the aformentioned VIN and letter "C." I'm 99 and 44/100th % sure it's a 315hp engine. I can't verify this from the heads, as they were replaced with 1960 standard heads sometime in it's past. Fortunately, whoever did the replacement, was smart enough to reinstall the water distribution tubes. This change may have cost .5 compression, but when I had it rebuilt, it was bored .030 and the heads needed to be shaved to fix a warp. So maybe not. I guess it realy doesn't make any difference, as I've long since past my hotrod days. I have to remind myself to stomp on it every once in a while, or the gas in the end carbs will get stale. Kind of ironic though. Back in the early 60's when I would have loved that kind of power, I was saddled with a Catalina Coupe with the 420E. Life can be unfair sometimes......John

[Safari Larry]

John, with gas today, a loss of compression is probably a good thing. Back in '61 I put a '59 tri-power engine in my '55. I insured that the end carbs got fresh gas daily -- but today I would probably have the same problem remembering to kick them in occasionally.

I think the letter C stamped on the block may be further validation that your engine is an original 315hp (tri-power) engine -- assuming that is the engine code. Now I'm wondering if Pontiac did that on all early '59 blocks, that is, stamp the engine code near the VIN.

Anyone know about Pontiac engine build in those days? Were all engines built at the Pontiac MI plant and then shipped to assembly plants? Because they were stamping engine production number into the block, then I would think they were all cast at one plant. What does the "GM1", "GM2", and "GM3" cast into engine parts mean? Perhaps different assembly lines or different plants?

What about other major components such as transmission, rear end and frame? Were they built at one plant and then shipped to assembly plants? Or were they made at the assembly plants -- along with Olds and Buick components?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

Anyone know about Pontiac engine build in those days? Were all engines built at the Pontiac MI plant and then shipped to assembly plants? Because they were stamping engine production number into the block, then I would think they were all cast at one plant. What does the "GM1", "GM2", and "GM3" cast into engine parts mean? Perhaps different assembly lines or different plants?

What about other major components such as transmission, rear end and frame? Were they built at one plant and then shipped to assembly plants? Or were they made at the assembly plants -- along with Olds and Buick components?

Engines were all cast, machined and assembled in Pontiac Michigan and then shipped to the various assembly plants.

Transmissions, rear axle assemblies and frames were also made at various external or GM supplier locations (like Detroit Gear and Axle, Hydramatic or AO Smith), assembled and then shipped to the GM assembly plants.

The GM final assembly plant would "dress them out" (ie, install shocks & brake lines on an axle; assemble the trans to the engine and install the engine accessory drive) and convey them to the main line.

Passenger car frames were normally received from the supplier as an assembly (welded together); by comparison truck frames were normally received as bare rails and riveted together in the final assembly plant.

Although these are truck photos, the pics along with the captions should allow you to catch some of the flavor of the various operations: http://www.73-87.com/7387info/Assembly%20Line.htm

K

[Safari Larry]

Thanks Keith, good info. Interesting link to the assembly line photos.

"GM-1", "GM-2", "GM-3", or "GM-4" is cast into most cast components including block, heads, and manifolds. Anyone know what those mean?

[johnta1]

I always figured they were for separate lines in the casting process.
GM-1 would be line 1, etc.

My 2 cents though.

[MOJO Catalina]

Here's the tag from a 1960 Catalina 2 dr sedan..
Former Colorado Highway patrol car..



Note the accessory "Z" all the way to the right appears to be pressed in from the front and is kind of off kilter...



A guy contacted me trying to sell it to me but it doesn't have the original engine so I thought the $3500 asking price was too much..

[expekt07]

60 Bonneville conv

STYLE: 60-2867
BODY: LA 8802
Pontiac assembly plant: K
TRIM 78
PAINT L

ACC QX (There's also a "K" almost to the right end of the plate)

[Safari Larry]

Thanks for the info expekt07. I added it to the list of observed codes.

[CATBIRD]

expekt07....."QX" is the sales and production code for power windows.

Everyone.....keep three things in mind when trying to translate the ACC codes:

Although we would like to think that companies as large and structured as GM, had a perfect handle on all of it's production, that is hardly the case. There are many examples of variations from what was supposed to happen and what actually happened. Case in point, my Catalina had the heater/defroster, but no codes what so ever on the trim tag. 1959 production was significantly up from the "Eisenhower recession" year of 1958. As a result, auto manufacturing was caught a little off guard. Early on it became a matter of trying to play catch-up. The major concern was to get the iron out the back door. I have a two page advertisement from the "Saturday Evening Post" in which Bunky Knudsen himself tries to assure potential customers that Pontiac would increase production to meet the demand. I'm sure the workers at Fisher Body and the final assembly plants were not worried about us historians fifty some years later.

Options and accessories are generally two different things. Although there can be some overlap. Basically options are upgrades to existing features; automatic transmission vs manual, Power steering vs manual, higher horsepower engine vs standard etc. Accessories were the additions that need not be on the car for it to be usable, such as radios, reverse lamps, heaters, etc.

Fisher Body only needed to be concerned with the items that affected the building of the main body prior to it being dropped onto the chassis. They couldn't give a rat's butt about the major mechanical parts (engine, transmission, differential, suspension, steering, and brakes.) They would need to know things like power windows because they were responsible for the wiring harness and putting the glass (clear or tinted) in. Or if a radio was called for as they needed to drill the cowl (or the rear quarter) for the antenna.

All the above being said, I doubt that the line workers in either Fisher Body or final assembly ever looked at the trim tag. They usually did their job based on the build sheets as each assembly came down the line......John

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by CATBIRD

I'm sure the workers at Fisher Body and the final assembly plants were not worried about us historians fifty some years later.

Agree. (Although I'm saving all my notes in case someone wants them 50 years from now....)

Originally Posted by CATBIRD

All the above being said, I doubt that the line workers in either Fisher Body or final assembly ever looked at the trim tag. They usually did their job based on the build sheets as each assembly came down the line......John

Again, I agree. The cowl tag is mostly for service use, just like the SPID label on more modern vehicles.

The assembly plants of the day were pretty dark and it would have been very difficult to read the fine lettering on the cowl tag. The build manifests were placed so that they could be read easily and from a distance, a practice we still use today.

K

[Safari Larry]

Thanks, good info John & Keith. 50 years from now, they will just search this forum for historical info.

[Poncho60]

Here's the data plate from my 60 Ventura Vista. Also ran across the "dealer invoice" that came with the car when I bought it 10 years ago..the Friday after Thanksgiving 2001.

[Safari Larry]

Poncho60, what was the Pontiac assembly plant? I would expect Pontiac MI (P). The FB data plate comes from PO (Pontiac MI) FB plant and looks much like the one MOJO posted from the same FB plant -- ACC codes separated with dashes but your's doesn't have the data code that the other did. They both have that mysterious digit off to the right but positioned a little differently. This shows they not only did things differently in different FB plants but they also did things differently within the same plant.

Looks like we several 60 examples now but where few 59s?

MOJO, do you know Pontiac assembly plant for that 60 former cop car?

[CATBIRD]

Poncho60.....Your accessory codes translate to "B" heater/defroster, "F" reverse lamps, "KX" foam front seat cushion, "I" tinted glass, and "JX" instrument panel pad. I noticed the special paint on the dealer invoice. Trim tag shows Shelltone Ivory "C" as the upper color. What was the "L" lower color?.....John

[Safari Larry]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

... yours doesn't have the data code that the other did.

Correction, I meant "yours doesn't have the date code that the other did."

I didn't notice the invoice, interesting. I see from it that the Pontiac assembly plant was P (Pontiac MI).

Originally Posted by CATBIRD

I noticed the special paint on the dealer invoice. Trim tag shows Shelltone Ivory "C" as the upper color. What was the "L" lower color?.....John

The "TT Paint" on invoice probably means two tone paint. Paint code on data plate, LC, means Coronado Red Lower & wheels with Shelltone Ivory Upper.

[Poncho60]

Assembly plant makes sense as car was originally purchased in New York and that's where I purchased it from.

[MOJO Catalina]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

MOJO, do you know Pontiac assembly plant for that 60 former cop car?

If I recall the guy was calling it a "California car" that was employed in Colorado so I guess it was Southgate but I can't be sure. I'll try and get ahold of him about it soon.

My 4 door sedan was built in P-Pontiac MI and the Wagon is a W-Wilmington DE