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#21
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I think 2 1450's was too much for the motor. I believe with 1 as John suggested,you would see a good increase in hp and torque.
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#22
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My 2 cents; flawed tune, or flawed design of the sheet metal intake are the likely causes here. In cfm capacity the terminators themselves not likely but the way they distribute that cfm relative to intake design could be a power killer. Most tunnel ram type intakes need big cfm to get the most from them. (you dont see prostocks running two 750's, even though that is a lot of airflow.) IR effects of tunnel rams need the flow capacity to work to their advantage. I'll add that cam and exhaust design does come into play here as well largely due to greater amount of exhaust volume generated from the higher power capabilities of methanol.
This brings this discussion to the more likely possibility that two domi's set up for methanol might do better, not so much because of lesser cfm, but manifold and throttle body design parameters. A single domi intake should not be able to out power a sheet metal tunnel ram if the tunnel ram and throttle bodies(or carbs) are working together with the headflow, cam, and exhaust. Something IS very wrong here. |
#23
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Again I would like to know the EGT's. I run two toilets on a 541 motor. I like my EGT's between 1150-1250.
__________________
![]() Due to the current economic conditions...the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off. Meet you at the finish line.....don't be late! |
#24
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Ron I will find out what the egt's were. Don
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#25
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Don went to the terminators because the dominators wouldnt fit in his car, I dont think he is going to go back.
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1969 carousel red firebird 455, richmond 5 speed 1964 540 gto 1971 lemans sport convertible 1972 Maverick under slow construction |
#26
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Ron, we no longer use EGT's in dyno testing as they can be too misleading.Our dyno is equipped with an Individual cylinder wide band O2 system. A/F ratio at peak torque was a 5.2:1 .
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Checkered Flag Machine & Ceralli Competition Engines Racing engines and induction development http://www.checkeredflagmachine.net/ |
#27
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I'm not surprised. Nothing wrong here. This is actually more in line with the findings of most real engine builders across the country. A power loss or at best zero gains is what usually happens in REAL LIFE high hp applications when switching to alcohol. The higher the hp, the more rpm, the more efficient, the less sense it makes to even try it...
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Gaby Labiosa EIC Motorsports Inc. 1320ft=What separates the internet "experts" from the real players.. |
#28
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quote: Ron "Again I would like to know the EGT's. I run two toilets on a 541 motor. I like my EGT's between 1150-1250." Ron I quickly found EGT readings to be very motor specific when I was racing two stroke snowmobiles. Some motors did there best at 1350 others would make the pistons look like they encountered a plasma cutter above 1250 degrees. Same probes gauges and distance from the piston. Lots of variables that affect readings there (including ambient temp of the probes thermocouple vs calibration temp). They are excellent for monitoring/adjusting your tune in the field once you establish a solid baseline. They also detect inaudible detonation spikes rather well if you run the quick response probes. 2 strokes are very unforgiving and you learn to believe your plugs 1st then use the egt as your reference point from there. 4 strokes are a bit more forgiving but a/f meter and plug readings first then egt as a monitor if you like. |
#29
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Gaby, are you saying that he probably won't see an increase in torque/HP?
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John Wallace - johnta1 Pontiac Power RULES !!! www.wallaceracing.com Winner of Top Class at Pontiac Nationals, 2004 Cordova Winner of Quick 16 At Ames 2004 Pontiac Tripower Nats KRE's MR-1 - 1st 5 second Pontiac block ever! "Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts." "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." – Socrates |
#30
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John,
That's exactly what I'm saying... On a 1000-1100hp motor, 50hp sounds about right.. Bruce, this post was on the hp increase on methanol, not the manifold and throttle body swap. However, like Top452 asked the increase in power to methanol is at BEST ZERO in high hp applications. I was extremely stupified with the numbers thrown out there, anywhere from 80hp to 500hp!!!!!! You yourself claimed a 80 to nearly 200hp gain. Why didn't anyone mention the manifold change BEFORE we all made these crazy claims??? Whoever tunes an engine on the dyno based on EGT's should be shot!!! Wait, that's a little harsh. They will just stay SLOW..... ![]()
__________________
Gaby Labiosa EIC Motorsports Inc. 1320ft=What separates the internet "experts" from the real players.. |
#31
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Hey Don,
I'll come tune your car! Glad to see you finally got it! |
#32
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Quote:
Sims suggested the absolute best possible could be as much as 189 hp more. I couldnt design that model myself but threw it out there. So much would have to be perfect I doubt that 1200 number. I couldnt agree with you more on your EGT comments. As I found out real fast (the hard way of course 3 times before I figured it out)doing initial tuneups with them can produce disasterous results. You really need to know your egts after best tune then you have an indication which way to adjust your tune in the event conditions indicate significant lower/higher temps than were optimal. My Yamaha would live 500 ft+(grass drags typically 4-500 ft) at 1450 and not make 300 ft at 1500+ 1350 peak never failed even prolonged temp exposure crossing a lake. My Polaris went to meltdown at 1250 faster than I could react to it. Same gauges probes and probe distance from the piston. I know its the sum of the variables why that was. |
#33
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I would guess around 30-40 with the sheet metal intake and twins and nothng on the alcohol. Maybe a loss.
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#34
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TOP 452, I'd still like to know what the combo was on your Toilets. (nozzles, jet size, pump, etc)
Going to sell it now? ![]()
__________________
John Wallace - johnta1 Pontiac Power RULES !!! www.wallaceracing.com Winner of Top Class at Pontiac Nationals, 2004 Cordova Winner of Quick 16 At Ames 2004 Pontiac Tripower Nats KRE's MR-1 - 1st 5 second Pontiac block ever! "Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts." "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." – Socrates |
#35
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Don, I think the runner length is going to end up being the issue here! I too have found zero or a loss on methanol on a highely modified engine, the stuff works great with blowers and also with lesser modified heads or when down nozzles are used in the back of the intake bowl but when used like a carb setup the heads have to be ported differently to even get to the same spot as you would be on gasoline, it takes 2.4 times the amount of methanol to equal the caloric value of gasoline... thats a hell of a lot extra fuel! Give me a call Don and I will go over the specifics with you. Dan
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#36
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Dan I will call you in the AM Thanks Don
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#37
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When my egine was dynoed it had EGT's and O2's. That is what we used at the dyno session to select jets and pill size. Since then, when racing, I look and log my EGT's and I want them between 1150 and 1250 for my best performance.
__________________
![]() Due to the current economic conditions...the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off. Meet you at the finish line.....don't be late! |
#38
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The other thing is I thought to really see a gain in power you almost always have to raise the compression even higher and that even though the octane isn't neccesarily what you would think you would need to support the compression (115 or so) compression as high as 20-1 is not unheard of on 115 octane methanol at 5.5-1 stoich due to the cooling effect of the fuel,Smitty read line 2 of this reference thread http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=204700&page=3 |
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