[RayK]

Bruce's nephew used to live around these parts meaning in the vicinity of where Summit is located. I've talked to him on a couple occasions when he was looking for some parts someone I knew gave him my number and I wonder if he works at Summit now? Maybe thats why BF is getting "the plug" from Summit so to speak.

[Overkillphil]

The guy seemed to produce impressive results at one time. I have to wonder how much of this bashing is deserved and how much is internet smack talk "gone wild"?

Never dealt with the guy personally, but we have all seen these kind of negative internet campaigns take on a life of their own from time to time.

It just seems like it is the "clicky" thing to hammer Bruce constantly. How many of the folks throwing the rocks actually know why they are doing it in the first place?

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Overkillphil

The guy seemed to produce impressive results at one time. I have to wonder how much of this bashing is deserved and how much is internet smack talk "gone wild"?

Never dealt with the guy personally, but we have all seen these kind of negative internet campaigns take on a life of their own from time to time.

It just seems like it is the "clicky" thing to hammer Bruce constantly. How many of the folks throwing the rocks actually know why they are doing it in the first place?

I just posted it because the dude lives about an hour from my shop and was referred to the OTHER Coast for a common part most Pontiac vendors have or can locate locally. Just interesting who Summit deems phone callable?

[Hot Rod]

The customer must have been a real a-hole so what better way to promote somebodys elses business that gives you the business! Send him the a-hole and they can be butt buddies together!!!!!!


Hot Rod

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

The customer must have been a real a-hole so what better way to promote somebodys elses business that gives you the business! Send him the a-hole and they can be butt buddies together!!!!!!


Hot Rod

Rodney. Not really. He wasn't a Pontiac person. Didn't know where to look. He has dealt with Summit before as 99% of the public has. He just asked where to find it as he thoguth Summit should handle it. Most feel that Summit has it all.

First time he was here & recommended from Pontiac people he met at a swap meet in Orlando. He just restores cars on the side and was looking for a valley pan as his was rusted thru. Common when engines sit out and water collects in that pan. Nice dude and after I sold him a pan and we talked looks to be a future customer as I deal in building ALL American Muscle Iron. I just now race & specialize in Pontiacs.
NIce guy and it came up in conversation ansd showed me the phone number he was given by a Summit rep. I went up on the internet and run it just for curiosity. LOL.

No biggie. Just a humorous tale to add to the many Pontiac urban stories out there.

[RayK]

I won't go into details about the conversation I had with "the nephew" but I will say that Bruce treated him like he was a regular customer and thats why he called me asking for parts. If his own flesh and blood doesn't count then I can only imagine how he treats some of his customers. I know I wouldn't ever call the guy for anything. FWIW thats all I'm going to say about it.

[Rob B]

Originally Posted by tikiklubracing

The F raffle motor is still running strong and at the same ET for 3 yrs now. 4300#
12.18 at 110 @ 38 adv 12.58@108 at 32 advance. Which is where it is conststent.

But if you only run it once a year, what does that prove???

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Never dealt with the guy personally, but we have all seen these kind of negative internet campaigns take on a life of their own from time to time."

If you never dealt with the guy, never met the guy, then your comment means nothing except for being a general comment. There were quite a few people who had serious issues with one guy as far as what was promised vs what they got. This deal is not about bashing someone as trying to keep the pontiac "Virgins" from getting nailed as often as they typically are in this hobby.

There are a lot of honest Pontiac people you can deal with and never go near a person like that if you do your homework before hand AND read web sites like PY and PZ. Lots of good dealers out there.

Ken Keefer builds a nice engine and obviously Tiki got at least one good engine out of the werst coast shop. So even a blind pig gets an acorn once in a while. I really have no idea who the werst coast shop was in P-Dudes post.

Tom V.

[Overkillphil]

Ken, I understand what you are saying. My commentary was really aimed at the whole "crowd with torches" that seems to come out anytime this guys name comes up.

I wonder how many members of this forum actually have had bad business dealings with Bruce, or any other vendor for that matter. It seems that there are maybe a handful, with the rest tagging along with the torches looking for the Frankenstein monster. The whole thing is just getting old.

I see a similiar pattern with certain members whenever Kauffman's name is mentioned.

It is just too easy to get caught up in the moment with the speed and proliferation of the internet.

I just like to think of our Pontiac community as being a bit more educated and classy than the Chevy drones.

[Tom Vaught]

Overkillphil, in any comment there is always a shade of truth. People have been screwed by others in this sport, that is reality. People have purchased speed items that were not fully developed as far as quality control goes and typically they failed with the response being: "It's a RACE PART, NO WARRANTY"

Some companies try and do better the next time, others keep screwing people.

A Guy I used to talk to, at one time, went by the name of Roger. This guy told me that even if the same guy never came back to him (after he screwed him) he would be fine in the Pontiac community as there were so many Virgins out there and more joining every day. Roger was screwing people up until the day he died of cancer and Roger screwed Randy W even after Roger was dead.

Tom V.

if you want to make this a B deal or a K deal that is your doing.

[Pontirag]

they're gonna shut this one down too ya know. I can see em blousing thier boots.

we are more educated and that education has got to come from somewhere. Its rediculous unrealistis and harmful to the hobby/industry to censor people. think how difficult, harmful and expensive it would be for all of use to each individually invent the wheel and never come out of our cave to share its development with others. it goes both ways.as much as we should be working together to be proactive and pushing our hobby/industry ahead we need to also look back on our history and never relive parts of it. And reardless of the declining credibility this sight inflicts upon itself by censoring us. its imparative to address these issues. They dont go away simply because we censor the victim. Other wise why bother even having laws.

Perhaps those who have not been victimised should qualify thier comments but to deny a person the right to speak on the matter is like denying a victim a lawyer to represent him in court. And nobody has the right to do that except the victim. So the only hope is that among the many voices heard will be the voice of reason, the victim and the fools. it will be for each of us to deside who is who?

This website with its censorship.and i do mean censorship as they delete these threads rather than put them where they should be, so it is censorchip. They do a dishonor to us and thier own customers by not kulling the heard so to speak. It harms the hobby/industry it makes these "virgins" sceptical of all vendors and it increases the overal cost to everybody.There are scam artist out there and they are among us in the pontiac family. You would actually be amazed at who some of them are. And that has been brough to the attention of moderators and they wont even clean thier own house.

If the moderators on this website are ethical and fair and are looking out for the best interest of the majority of us they will allow us to speak. They will protect our interests as they are the same as thier own interests. If on the other hand It scares them to have the victims speak up then they must be uncomfortable with thier own business practices. I personally dont think they have anything to be worried about. but to stiffle us is wrong. If they wont or cant regulate us then allow us to do it to our selves. Its all banter anyway. and to deny the victims thier voice because of what others say empowers the scammers. because the scammers cry even louder and the real victims voice is intentionally drowned out.

Oh and another thing, any time one of us is victimised we are all victimised. Thats why laws apply to all of us. We are all victims if one of us is and as such we all have the right to speak out. The moderators who censor this site dont even adhear to thier own rules and impose them willfully and subjectively on us.
and what are we trying to do, get the word out on scam artist. Any other post would be relocated but some are obviously censored. and to protect who? not the victim, not the general audience, and not performance years or any other legitamate vendor.

If your legit you got nothing to worry about. Every body makes mistakes but its how the service after the sale is handled which determines the criminals from the legit businesses. If you or you moderators descriminate in favor of the criminals then you becom an accessory. The moderators who censor this site continue to put this site and PY at risk as well the victims past present and future if they silence the victims. If one of us is a victim we all are. Silence is aquiesense. Moderators clean out your own house. I'd like to hear Mike Nixons feed back on this.

[Pontirag]

Do the chickens have any say so in the choice of which fox protects the chicken house?

if a crime is comitted in our neihborhood are we not all victims? are we not all deserving of equal protection under the law? shouldn't those laws be applied equally, fairly, dispastionatly and objectively? should not the law be applied to protect others in the future?

lets see.

[Overkillphil]

Pontirag, first of all you should use the spell check option before clicking on "submit reply".

Secondly, if you owned PY you may have a completely different opinion about the censorship on this forum. You would not want to be sued by providing an uncontrolled public forum for anyone to slander people, whether it was deserved or not.

I don't think anyone disputes many of these issues with certain vendors, however it seems to escalate to a dangerous level (legal wise), venturing into slanderous and libel territory at times. I believe we have all seen an example of this in recent months.

So, while your idealistic viewpoint has validity, it is not realistic in our lawsuit-happy society.

If you feel that strongly about your views, perhaps you could start your own website and Pontiac forum, which could provide uncensored access for the victims of unscrupulous business owners.

I am sure many of us would be happy to register as members should you choose to pursue such an endeavor.

[pont406]

Phil is basically right on this one, if someone has a problem with a vendor, let them post it, and others who have "relavant" info pertaining to problem or vendor, post it up. however there are several who "jump on the bandwagon" and take the posts into speculation and then things get out of hand! like the "better business forum" states "only firsthand info please". pontirag, chill out a little, PY doesn't need to be a "free for all" you've got to have moderation, because anytime you get a large group of people together, there gonna be trouble that needs to be dealt with!

[Cliff R]

The natural tendency of most human beings is to focus on the bad stuff. I don't know if misery loves company, or if folks just love to talk bad about others because their wives don't treat them right at night! In any case, I've learned from being in business that we will on occassion here some good things, usually we don't hear anything, but you screw something up for someone, and fully expect the hear about it immediately, and at least 100 times!

In any case, we have NEVER, EVER, in one single instance had a bad experience from anyone on the West Coast. I have had to listen to at least half a dozen customers go on for hours about how they were "rolled under the bus" by a particular vendor out that way. Since ALL of my information is second hand, should I say NOTHING about it?

I will say that we were sent a Ram Air quadrajet that was "set-up" by a West Coast shop. At that time, this particular shop offered complete/correct rebuilding, with performance modifications, etc. The customer got back a 1968 "grocery getter" carburetor, RESTAMPED with a 1969 Ram Air number. The carb didn't even work, not to mention being the wrong year, model, etc, for their car. The restamp work was OBVIOUS, they didn't even bead blast the surface to remove the tool marks left by the milling process, and the number was stamped upside down, with no plant or date code.

The shop in question never did own up to the mischief, give the money back, replace the carburetor, or even get it to work, even after getting it back several times. That's about as close as I came to dealing directly with that particular vendor.

Don't think that devious behavior is limited to any single vendor, or to the West Coast.....FWIW.....Cliff

[Pontirag]

its not the nature of humans to lean towards the bad, there areproffessional courtesy's among business's. and those who speak the loudest are probably not the ones who harm the industry. Its not even about those who do harm the industry. its about silencing those who speak out. And to tell us "well if you dont like it go some where else"
Have you noticed that many already have and those of us who are left are not angry at PY for providing this site for our benifit. The question arrises who is the "which who benifits" and why should the actions of the moderators favor silencing the victims. that being the case, and it is, then who benifits. Legitamate vendors do you benifit? Hobbiest, do yoy benifit' People who work hard to earn the money that gets pumped into the Pontiac industry, do you benifit? who benifits when victims are silenced.


There is some truth to what is said the dispute is not with most venders, there is a level of tolerance for bad service but beyond that itis criminal. This site is only responsable if it wrongfully chooses a point of view that denies a person the right express thier point of view and somebody gets hurt. It should limit itself to being a veneiw in which OPINIONS are expressed. The moderators clearly dont recognise this when they shut down a thread. furthermore to do so inconsistantly puts thier behavior in the spotlite. If its inconsistant and constantly leans towards or in favor of a certain choice then there becomes a problem more so if PY, as an entity does not hold this to be a corporate point of view. yet its moderators representing "the best interests of PY"assert an undefensable and more damming inconsistant point of view. It is this behavior that needs to be addressed before any moderator exersised the athourity to impose thier own personal interpretation or will upon others... and do so with the implied athority of PY who would NEVER assert such a risky and contrary(read undefensable ) view.
.PY,same deal, unless its moderators choose by thier action to censor one point of view and thus support another. and people and or the hobbie/ industry is harmed.
when a moderator acts to censor one point of view then it espouses another and then becomes a liable partner. PY may have no point of view one way or the other but if its moderators censors a point of view they act as an agent for PY and representing that point of view and being empowerd by PY the essentialy have chosen one camp over the other and being PYs rep they have chosen on behalf of PY, that point of view. Does PY know that individuals they have chosen to represent them as moderators are espousing a point of view that migh put PY at risk?

and if you think its limited to the issues suroundin RKE or FB you are taking the narrow view,

Its the inconsistant application of the rules by moderators that I not only question but outright challenge. not for my own sake which is a looming issue but for the sake of all of us who benifit from this site and yet witness behavior that riskes this sight. This site is a wonderful site. that is what should be preserved. not the narrow subjective and arbitrary point of view of a moderator.
I see it all the time people who rule with an iron fist but rule irresponsably. My point of view is not idealistic. its based in the hard world of reality where law suits happen all the time. If my mouth puts me in jeapordy of a law suit then so be it. its on me. If i look foolish so be it, its on me! as is the case for anybody who risks opening thier mouth. But remeber, its the truth that is indisputable. and even that is not the main issue of this rant.

it goes back to the unequal application of the rules and the censorship of those who call out the scum on thier behaviour. Its the censorship of the victim that moderators empower the scum.

I have not seen any behavior by participants that risk themselves or this site. But the unequal censorship by cetain moderators clearly indicates a bias that while it censors some and protects others it harms those who dont yet know who can and cant be trusted. It hurts all of us and all legit vendors. It does not really even help the scum but it puts PY at risk and the only people who seem to benifit are those who lord it over us which is niether there job nor a responsable position to take.

MODERATORS CLEAN UP YOUR ACT FIRST! You demonstarate the appropriate behavior and we will emulate it. Set aside you vanity and hubris. there is nothing to be gained by silencing us. Moderate and regulate your own! FIRST! Allow us to speak the truth, the facts or as fools.

If you wait until a thread becomes inflamatory to react you have made a bias choice.
Deleating a thread or locking it is a bias choice
deleating or locking a thread rather than relocating it to the business, entities echange thread is a bias choice

moderators who themselves do not adhere to the same standards they inflict arbitrarily upon us is a bias choice.

Moderators who are empowered to regulate our behavior while thier own goes unregulated is a bias choice

When moderators willfully inflict thier abitrary and and subjective control over us simply because we present a view that is contrary that is a bias choice.

Niether my self or any other person who's statment i have read on this sight has been libelous or slanderous. Some isn't even funny. Some moderators have imposed arbitrarily and subjectivly thier own point of view by censoring and deleating out own.That is wrong and it does not represent the view of PY. yet it puts the sight at risk. Let those who feel this site has wronged them come forward and speak thier mind as i have done. If I speak the truth, so be it,If I speak the facts ,so be it. If I speak foolishly, so be it. Let it be my behavior that cast doubt. I would rather risk being judged by my peers..to be foolish the silenced , what for speaking the truth? by a moderator of such ilk that some are?

There is no risk in speaking the facts or truth. No body should be censored for speaking the fact or truth.But for a moderator to censor a person "IN THE NAME OF PY" demonstartes personal irresponsability and puts PY at risk. moderators impose thier own will but in the name of PY?

Let me ask you this : who has the Deeper pockets? a power tripin moderator or PY? besides only the bad guys would resort to a lawsuit to defend themselves. the rest of us stand in the public spotlite to be judged right wrong or foolish. I'm not affraid, Nobody else who's comment i have read should be afraid. Its the truth if you dont like it the YOU change. How is a person bad because they speak the truth. If I shut up will you change? not if your dishonest.Where is the logic in silencing me to make the bad guys change. Doesn't that sound a little disfunctional?

It is the risky and irresponsable application of arbitrary and subjective imposition by moderators that risk this site. No one else. You shut up the victims. you claim to act as the agent of PY but you favor the 'OTHERS'. or your own vain interests.

Step down or clean up!

[Cliff R]

Overall, it is my opinion that the moderators in question do a pretty good job. I would NOT want that job. If a topic gets "canned", most of the time it is simply out of control, with DIRECT personal attacks contained within.

They have rules for this site, like most other sites that I visit, personal attacks are not allowed. They are not productive anyhow. They have provided a place to make specific comments about business adventures, good and bad.

Anyhow, don't forget the main purpose of the websites, to allow a place for folks to post usable/accurate information on specific topics. Sure, folks aren't always going to agree on everything, and their will be conflicting information, and arguements on certain topics with good points brought up by both sides, happens all the time.

To run a thread with the sole intent to SLAM a company for a bad product, or bad business practices, etc, puts the webisite in a very precarious situation. Essentially they are providing an instrument for folks to cause damage to a business. That could end them up in the middle of a legal situation, so it may not be in their best interest(s) to allow it to happen. Just sort of thinking out loud here. There is certainly information that needs to get out, especially when it comes to defective parts, bad business practices, etc. I'm just not sure this is the best place to air those issues?.....Cliff

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Holy CRAP.

All I posted was that a Summit rep referred a local Pontiac person from Central Florida looking for parts to the West Coast self imposed Pontiac, AMC and GN guru, just ask him he will tell you, for a valley pan. Talk about a 360. LOL>

[Cliff R]

Ken, what did you expect, you can't reference anything with a PONTIAC and WEST COAST VENDOR, without the thread taking a turn in the direction that it did.

Hey, as long as the guy at Summit wasn't Scott Esterle. I know that he knows better, and I would imagine this topic may come up at a staff meeting, just a guess?.....Cliff

[Kurt Zimmerman]

"MODERATORS CLEAN UP YOUR ACT FIRST! You demonstarate the appropriate behavior and we will emulate it."


Sounds like somebody is wishful thinking here.

We do the best we can. We get paid nothing. Everyone seems to think they know best, when nobody knows best. We all make mistakes. If somebody peed in your corn flakes lately, pour yourself another bowl. Get over it.

Kurt