[Steve Hoog]

John

I am in noway defending but this magazine that reported the V in the Bird was not one controlled by Wangers; infact I do not believe Wangers was around when the Drag Racing writer was down doing the story. I completely agree 99% of those magazine stories were white washed and all figures adjusted, flat out **** **** lying in some of them. But I will suggest that this one article might be the 1% that was not full of crap. "MIGHT"

http://www.empgmc.com/race/florida/69julydragracing.htm

I heard about Milt's attempt to run the Brown car. I don't think Milt was the master mind behind making the cars run in the late 60's at Royal; I believe that honor goes to the Warren borthers. Could be wrong here, but I have not heard anything about the Warren's tunning the Brown car.

Since you have been one of the lucky ones to run a V, I will put credence to what you say and that Bruno would kick your azz. But I know Bruno has a couple of surprises in that motor, and I would hold out on full opinion until I finally have a chance to experience a V for myself.

[Steve Hoog]

Greg

The major reason for V failure was the weak sodium filled valves broke off time and again falling down in the chamber and destroying the motors.

[ramair2]

WHOA FELLAS!

re: the ra iv vs ra v *performance* argument...

YOU HAVE to compare a STOCK RA IV vs STOCK RA V!

Otherwise what kind of comparison are we talling about ? Of course you can tweak the h3ll out of a RA5 to get it going strong. BUT THEN you can ALSO modify a ram air IV to make it run like a beast!

Come on now lets get (at least a little bit) real! :-)

[ramair2]

BTW my earlier question about why didnt we ever see a RA V in a production car is answered in my book. Just from what I've read here, it seems to me as if there were WAY too many performance and component reliability issues...

[Steve Hoog]

Joe

Since Delorean left in Feb of 69, that effectively killed it. The V was VERY close to production; but after JD left, Tom Nell's department was apparently left in a state of suspension. The was a theft ring of Pontiac parts that ended with at least one murder that I've heard about; some how that got associated with the Engineering department and the entire thing was **** canned in 1973.

Of course I wasn't there; but this is the best I can do to explain it with the limited information I have. Pontiac's new leadership was off in a different direction after the Feb 69; as was the entire country. Though I was young, I can still remember the choatic state our nation was in. The V fell victim to bad timing.

There is some truth to what you mentioned. Yes the motor was not ready; had it been fully developed in early 69 there is a good chance it would have squeaked in the 70 models. Had JD stayed at Pontiac, he may have pushed Engineering to get the motor ready for 70. What could have been.

[gregsgtos2]

well,bruno has a tweaked raiv,and i have a tweaked rav.steved400,my v heads dont have sodium filled valves in them.they might even be a little bigger than stock,.230 intake,.186 exhaust.NOW,THOSE ARE VALVES!i agree with you on brunos iv engine,i believe there are more than a COUPLE of surprises in there.ever here of stroked?

[Steve Hoog]

The sodium valves were in the original heads from Pontiac; obviously not a good choice for a build today, at least not the same designed valve.

I'm not a stickler for stock; Bruno has my vote for kick azz car of the year. But most of this bench racing we do in here is losely based on factory equipment; always fun to muddy the waters with a tweaked Bruno style motor.

By the way, I'm on Jim Bean again.

[J GLASGO]

Originally Posted by gregsgtos2

well,bruno has a tweaked raiv,and i have a tweaked rav.steved400,my v heads dont have sodium filled valves in them.they might even be a little bigger than stock,.230 intake,.186 exhaust.NOW,THOSE ARE VALVES!i agree with you on brunos iv engine,i believe there are more than a COUPLE of surprises in there.ever here of stroked?

I dont think Bruno,one of my pure stock brothers,would run stroked. I know whats in my 69 RAM AIR 4,and it is stock .060 over,melling spc-8 factory cam,not advanced,ground on a diferent centerline,or lobe sep,but STOCK! You put together a stock 5 motor,put it in a showcar,and we can run with slicks or redlines,my 4 puts a beating on the 5 no problem!

[Noel Drach]

Having had the pleasure of riding in a couple RA4 GTO's and one RA5. All the RA4 GTO'S would have had the five for lunch. Please don't get me wrong it was fast.Just not like the fours.I would have liked to see Jegstek's run. What a match up between him and Bruno. I hear there maybe a couple new RA 4 in the works for the pure stock drags.

[Steve Hoog]

Greg

I will say in my opinion from the video I watched and listened to on Bruno's car down the track, it sounded like a straight up 400. I didn't say anything before, because it was just a gut feeling from the sound. But if John says no stroke along with my ear, I would have to say my best guess is not stroked.

Now if you know for fact it was stroked, I don't have a problem with that either. But some one is wrong here.

[Steve Hoog]

John

I would like your opinion on a gear ratio please.

I'm getting ready to finally have my 69 GTO running and I'm leaning toward 4.33 gears. I'd like to give you the quick on my set up and see if you think I'm in the right direction for the street/strip.

428 E heads flowed by Butler to .325 ish, .520 ish hyd cam, with M21, and should be about a 9.75 compression ratio.

[gregsgtos2]

i dont know about brunos engine being stroked,but i sure bet that the car does not have all stock pieces on it.suspension i know for sure,4 speed trans for sure,unless pontiac snuck in a richmond from the factory.john,did you oversee the building of brunos engine?

[Steve Hoog]

Greg do you have one car that is your keeper?

[gregsgtos2]

1 owner,69 judge conv.

[gregsgtos2]

i guess that would make me the second owner.

[J GLASGO]

Greg,No i did not oversee Brunos engine rebuild,would like to have though!!Steve,i would think a 3.9or 4.1 would be plenty! Just tell everyone it is a 4.33 for cool factor!

[gregsgtos2]

steved400,are they having drag races at the poci this year?

[Steve Hoog]

Greg they are; but I am not involved. I will race. What motor do you run in your keeper?

John I have run the M21 before with my 3.73 gears and it was WAY to low for the M21, I'm worried the 3.90 and 4.10 will not be enough of a jump up. I've run 4.10 in one of my 68 Bird's with a 6X 455 M40, and it hit the traps right at 5100 on 29" tires at low 12. I built this 428 to make power between 6500 and 7000, that was why I was thinking 4.33 would be a better gear. The under 10 compression is the only thing keeping me guessing, but I didn't want to have to run race fuel on this motor. Been there done that, pain in the azz.

[gregsgtos2]

john,i cant deny bruno has an awesome car.but i have owned several raiv cars and built a 69 rav car,there was no comparison.the iv engine and v engine are 2 totally differant engines.the iv is low rpm torqque and power,the v is a high rev,high rpm engine.it took me 2 monthe to get use to the v engine.the power in a v doesnt start until 5500-6000 rpms or better,the engine i had in that car could take 7500 rpms all day long,your iv engine would be laying all over the street at those rpms.the v was built for nascar and road racing,but needs help for the strip.it has to be wound out before it hits its powerband.so each of the 2 engines were built for 2 differant applications.i am not trying to take anything away from bruno,but if everybody thinks his car is stock,i disagree.

[Steve Hoog]

If we ever get the aluminum remake of the V, I will build and will build all the way.