[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Steve,

The reason everyone was complaining about the Hemis, is that they got the new head castings, and the new block castings that made the Hemis run 1/2 second faster or more. If they were still running the original castings I doubt any would be breaking 9 seconds.

You would think that in a qualified field, an improvement like that should have gotten them some HP, but they got nothing.

So now they have heads that flow 440 cfm, and better blocks, and we all have to run our 30-35 year old castings with no HP adjustments? Pretty bogus if you ask me.

If we pay a sanctioning body the money that we do, they have the moral, ethical, if not legal obligation for fairness and some resemblence to a level playing field.

To me, it proves how weak the Hemi were to the rest of us. It would be like giving me a IA block and a Super Chief head.

Lynn

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

i just have 1 question. how do you guys know all of this stuff ?

[Region Warrior]

Ok, my $2. I'm not saying which is better or worse. You already know how i feel about Chrysler's. I grew up 3 miles from a dragstrip. I was there from 69 up until it closed. So i knew the local cars.
All the original blocks and rods were broken. They were scrounging for parts back then. The aftermarket came to the rescue with new and improved parts. The aftermarket saved the hemi's.
Of course, you can pretty much say the same thing for Chevy and Ford. Thier designs have all progressed over the years also. No one uses the original castings on them either.
So now maybe NHRA will let Lynn bring back the 1969 casting that should have never been disqualified in the 1st place. Were the 427 Ford tunnel ports disqualified Lynn? How many street cars came with that engine? I dont know the answer to these 2 questions.
Hopefully, the Tiger head will get legalized too, because it would be a progressive design like the other makes have. Then Pontiac's will be closer to a level playing field.
The other pitfall is price and quanity of parts available. Would be nice to have replacement parts same day like Chevy, Dodge, Ford, so we dont have to go home broken. Not to many Pontiac guys can afford to have a spare rotating asm, like a forged crank, rods, pistons, or a AP2 block.
We need good, affordable cranks. I've been told they are on the way soon by 2 different sources. Maybe next year.
Cant wait to see Steve's hemi to get waxed by a wedge

[fasteddy]

The guys that run in the stock classes have work with factory stuff. I have a Mopar buddy who is competing in A/SA for the first time this year. He had to use the original stuff-no aftermarket heads-no porting. I respect and admire the Stock class racers for the time effort and $$$ they put into their cars -no Brand withstanding.

[theoldone]

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

Wedge designs have their virtues, so do canteds and so do HEMIs. To say eary HEMI was a bad or unreliable engine is nonsense. That engine carried 90% of the fastest cars in drag racing for over 10 years. Chrysler quit making it after 58 because of costs. Mickey Thompson and other drag racers developed it in the early 60s while Chrysler didn;t. By late '63, Chrsyler had a change of heart and brought out a new HEMI and that design is still used by all the fastest cars in drag racing to this day. Period.
Angling the valves away from each other provides straight porting, almost no shrouding on both intake and exhaust. A high, centrally mounted plug gives axcellent combustion
Hemis also can be modifyed to accomodate larger valves the same way a wedge head design would, you move them at the 6 and 12 oclock position with a hemi and a 3 and 9 oclock with a wedge.
In N Top Fuel, the early Hemi still dominates over the canted rats and occaisional wedge. Even with the modern canted rat heads allows in this class I have seen cars with iron 1955 354 heads walk on them. This class is unique in that wedge, hemi and canted designs must compete on the same footing. The hemi is by far has been the most successful and continues to be. I do not know of another class that allows all 3 chamber/valvetrain designs together without weight breaks, etc.
As far as SS/AA class being only '68 426 HEMI cars... I was told by more than one mopar guy that there was a lot of crying by the ford and chev guys about having to compete with the 426 so NHRA moved all the super stockers down a class and left the 426s ion "AA".
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

Steve, you hit the nail with this post- very good information and I agree on every point. Not only does the Hemi head have the best design for airflow and combustion efficiency for an all-out supercharged drag motor- the original Mopar block they put the heads on in 1964 is built like a battleship. It could take twice the HP and still not break. Someone else mentioned SS class rules- yes they are very strict and you must run the exact casting number allowed for that year, or you are DQ'd- and that means carb numbers, head numbers, block numbers.

The SS/A Hemis make 1000 HP on gasoline using the original 2-Carter 4-barrel carbs. Not Holleys.

The tunnel port Ford head question- they may not have been legal for NHRA Super Stock because they were not released to the general public in the showroom. I'll have to check the rules online to see.

It would be great if NHRA allowed the original iron RA V head to be used on 1969-70 Pontiacs, and allow the 366 CID NASCAR short stroke motor in 1972 cars also. Imagine seeing a 400 or 455 w/2-4's and RA V heads running in SuperStock- that would be truly exciting.

[theoldone]

Originally Posted by ponchoshop

. Were the 427 Ford tunnel ports disqualified Lynn? How many street cars came with that engine? I dont know the answer to these 2 questions.
Hopefully, the Tiger head will get legalized too, because it would be a progressive design like the other makes have. Then Pontiac's will be closer to a level playing field.
Cant wait to see Steve's hemi to get waxed by a wedge

OK I checked the tunnel port Ford heads against the casting numbers allowed for 1967-68 Ford 427's in NHRA SS class- no, they are not listed and therefore the tunnel port Ford heads are ILLEGAL for SS class racing with a 427 Ford.

NO street cars came with 427 Ford tunnel port heads- they were over the counter only primarily for NASCAR racers to use against the 426 HEMI in 1967-68. They were also embraced by drag racers as well later and were very successful there too, but not in SuperStock.

The Tiger will not ever be legalized, because it is a totally new design. The Ford and Mopar castings that are new and legalized for NHRA are primarily recasts of original designs- and Ford and Mopar had to give them a part number to legalize them. So unless Pontiac gives a head a real GM part number, NHRA will never legalize any aftermarket Pontiac head. That's how the game works.

Inch for inch with equal displacment and equipment, you won't see a blown wedge headed motor beating a blown Hemi motor very often. If at all. The Hemi design is just that much more efficient- it has the ability to take an ocean of fuel poured into it under boost, and is still efficient enough to burn it all and that's how it makes more power- through increased chamber efficiency. It surprised the hell out of the Mopar engineers when they tested it in V-8 configuration in the 1950-60's If you dump that equal amount of fuel under boost into a wedge headed motor, it will simply spit it out the exhaust unburned and is not capable of extracting as much power from it, like the Hemi can.

It has to do with the plug location and chamber shape.

Steve is right in his comments about the 1950's Hemi- we would have a hard time equaling one of those 331-354-392 Hemi motors in top form, let alone the 2nd generation 426 model- which was an improved stronger version.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Everyone was upset at Hemi guys because they got the new replacement blocks and head castings capable of windfall HP increases over the stock castings. At the same time most of us all have to run the OEM castings.

This put them all at the top of the qualifying list in a qualifying field.

They also are allowing the carbs to almost be in line, when they were originally cross rams.

None of the SS/AA in my opinion would be running faster than nine seconds if they were restricted to the OEM originals like us.

Lynn

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

The Mopar Hemi stuff was as much a factory racing program as the RA-V stuff or the Tunnel Port Ford stuff, L-88 Chevy stuff. That is why it is a separate class.

This is why I have called NHRA for a heads up class where we do all the factory race engines heads up.

Lynn

[theoldone]

The difference is, the Hemi was put in cars on the showroom floor from 1965 to 1971 by Plymouth and Dodge, they made several thousand of them in running cars right from the factory assembly lines- that's why NHRA has no choice but to allow them.

FWIW, Ford suffered the same fate with their SOHC 427, they also were not allowed to run the popular factory SuperStock classes, so they ran A/FX instead.

Releasing new heads that get NHRA approval is not only a Hemi thing- Dove offers at least 5 castings or more that are NHRA approved for SuperStock and Stock 390-427-428 engines- with the port CC as allowed for the originals. See this link

http://www.doveengineparts.com/image...onHeads-07.gif

Mopar and Ford are willing to step up and give these heads an official part number- that's an NHRA requirement. As cast they cannot have ports any larger than NHRA specs for the original engine. I doubt the heads alone bring great windfalls of HP over the originals. The ports are the same size and still must meet the rules.

[slowbird]

Not to get off of topic but how did the Ford Boss 429 hemi head do? Is it allowed in SuperStock?

[theoldone]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Not to get off of topic but how did the Ford Boss 429 hemi head do? Is it allowed in SuperStock?

yes, it looks like the Boss 429 is allowed in SuperStock- that looks like it at bottom of list for 1969, 370 HP w/Holley carb and solid lifter cam

here's the link if anyone wants to look up any make, model, year- and if it's legal or not- if it's not listed, you can't run it in SS or Stock

http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/engine/


Issued: 1 March 1969
Revised: 5-1-70, 6-21-76, 6-24-95, 9-5-95, 1-1-96, 1-1-98, 5-12-99, 8-1-99
Bulletin #: FORD-69 Page 1 of 2

Specifications for the 1969 Ford Motor Company engines.

HP Disp C.R. Ind. Make Model/Transmission Manifold R.R. Lifter Head cc Notes

100 170 8.7 1-1 Ford C8DF-H/SM, G/AUTO 1.50 H 48.32
115 200 8.8 1-1 Ford C9DF-B/SM, C8OF-B/AUTO 1.50 H 48.32
150 240 9.2 1-1 Ford C8AF-BF/SM,E/AUTO C5AE-J 1.61 H 66.00
155 250 9.0 1-1 Ford C9OF-B/SM, A/AUTO 1.50 H 59.40
220 302 9.5 1-2 Ford C8AF-BD/SM,C9AF-A/AUTO C8AE-B 1.61 H 59.90
250 351 9.5 1-2 Ford C9ZF-A/SM, C9ZF-B/AUTO C9OE-F 1.61 H 58.90
265 390 9.5 1-2 Ford C9AF-B/SM, C/AUTO C8TE-A 1.73 H 70.10
280 390 10.5 1-2 Ford C9AF-B/SM, C9MF-A/AUTO C8TE-A 1.73 H 68.10
290 302 10.5 1-4 Holl C9ZF-J/SM ONLY, C9AF-E 1.73 M 58.00
290 351 10.7 1-4 Ford C9ZF-C/SM, D/AUTO C9OE-E 1.61 H 58.90
320 390 10.5 1-4 Auto C9ZF-E/SM, F/AUTO C9ZE-A 1.73 H 63.50
320 429 10.5 1-2 Ford C9AF-J/AUTO ONLY C9AE-A 1.75 H 71.50
335 428 11.0 1-4 Holl C9AF-M,U/SM,C9OF-H/AUTO C8OE-C 1.73 H 68.00 1
335 428 11.6 1-4 Holl C9AF-M,U/SM,C9OF-H/AUTO C8OE-C 1.73 H 68.00 2
360 429 10.5 1-4 Ford C9AF-R/AUTO ONLY C8SE-B 1.75 H 71.50
370 429 10.5 1-4 Holl C9AF-S/ALL C9AE-D 1.75 M 85.00

Notes
1-Alt carb1 C9AF-N/AUTO
2-Alt carb2 C9AF-N/AUTO Super Stock only

[theoldone]

hey, this is cool- the original 1962 aluminum front end Super Duties are legal for NHRA SuperStock, using the 405 HP combo w/2-4's- there's a writeup on it in the rules, you can't use the 980 heads though. Only Catalina can run the aluminum front ends.



Issued: 7 March 1962
Revised: 6-1-62, 8-13-62. 02-03-03
Bulletin #: PONT-62 Page 1 of 1
Specifications for the 1962 Pontiac engines.

HP Disp C.R. Ind. Make Model/Transmission Manifold R.R. Lifter Head cc Notes
110 195 8.60 1-1 Roch 7020061/SM 1.50 H 71.3
115 195 8.60 1-1 Roch 7020062/AUTO 1.50 H 71.3
120 195 10.25 1-1 Roch 7020061/SM 1.50 H 66.8
140 195 10.25 1-1 Roch 7020062/AUTO 1.50 H 66.8
166 195 10.25 1-4 Roch 7020079/SM 7020066/AUTO 1.50 H 66.8
185 215 10.25 1-4 Roch 7020078/AUTO 1.56 H 66.8
215 389 8.60 1-2 Roch 7020060/SM 1.50 H 71.3
230 389 8.60 1-2 Roch 7020075/62-10 HM 7020074/315 HM 1.50 H 71.3
235 389 8.60 1-4 Cart AFB-3123S/SM 1.50 H 71.3
267 389 10.25 1-2 Roch 7020071/62-10 HM 1.50 H 71.3
283 389 10.25 1-2 Roch 7020070/315- HM 1.50 H 71.3
303 389 10.25 1-4 Cart AFB-3123S/SM 1.50 H 71.3 1
318 389 10.75 3-2 Roch Fr-7013063/ALL Rr-7013065/ALL 1.50 H 66.8 2
333 389 10.75 1-4 Cart AFB-3123S/SM 1.50 H 66.8 1
348 389 10.75 3-2 Roch Fr-7013063/ALL Rr-7013065/ALL 1.50 H 66.8 2
405 421 11.00 2-4 Cart AFB-3433S & 3435S/ALL Runner Type 1.65 M 66.8

Notes
1-Alt carbs 3300S/315 HM 3362S/62-10 HM
2-Alt carbs C-7020069/SM or 62-10 HM, 7020067/315-HM

Deck Piston Dish/Dome
HP Disp Cl Type Height Vol Valves Cam Lift Springs
110 195 .000 1880/1600 330/330 Outer Only
115 195 .000 1880/1600 330/330 Outer Only
120 195 .000 1880/1600 330/330 Outer Only
140 195 .000 1880/1600 400/400 Outer & Inner
166 195 .000 1880/1600 400/400 Outer & Inner
185 215 .000 1500/1310 380/380 Outer Only
215 389 .000 1880/1600 330/330 Outer Only
230 389 .000 1880/1600 370/370 Outer & Inner
235 389 .000 1880/1600 330/330 Outer Only
267 389 .000 1880/1600 370/370 Outer & Inner
283 389 .000 1880/1600 411/411 Outer & Inner
303 389 .000 1880/1600 411/411 Outer & Inner
318 389 .000 1880/1600 411/411 Outer & Inner
333 389 .000 1880/1600 411/411 Outer & Inner
348 389 .000 1880/1600 411/411 Outer & Inner
405 421 .000 Note a 465/465 Outer & Inner
a- 1920/1660 with 540306 heads. 2020/1760 with 544127 heads.

Disp-Hp Cylinder Head Castings
421-405hp 544127,540306

Early production 405hp 421" engines used cylinder heads cast
540306 with 1.92” intake & 1.66” exhaust valves. This head was
replaced on a later built engine with the head cast 544127 with
2.02" intake & 1.76" exhaust valves.

Standard production line items for the 405hp 421" engine in the
Catalina Models 2347 or 2311 include the use of aluminum hoods
fenders bumpers etc., and are allowed in Stock classes. Only
those models listed are permitted this usage except the aluminum

[7T2]

wait a second, ch3no4 is fuel and oxidizer in one homogenous format. the reason why hemis did so well with nitro was because quench wasnt needed from semi hemi or wedge to promote combustion. therefore advantage in to the totally open hemi chamber w/ zero quench and therefore no valve shrouding. as for blown gas, the beating of the impellers served to "mix" the flow, once again negating the need for squish.
of course now though, i dont know how chrysler has improved the reintroduced hemi chamber for emissions... hmmmm

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Old One,

You are very mistaken about the new Hemi heads. Just call up any engine builder who does them for NHRA cars. The original head weighs mid fifty pounds. The new head is like about 75 lbs. Where do you think that extra material is?

This puts way more casting in the porting areas. Couple that with the significant rules for restricting external welding on cylinder heads, the difference is fairly dramatic.

The guys that do most of the cylinder head work for the SS/AA Hemis told me that the new castings were worth minimum 75HP over the older castings for Super Stock and probably way more.

You can weld in Super Stock in the runners, but no external or combustion area welding is allowed.

Bill Foder has also done 8 sets of SS Hemi heads, and he says that it isnt even a close argument. The new blocks and new heads dont even resemble the orginals.

The Hemis all moved way up the qualifying list after they got the new castings. That has happened predominately in Super Stock when people get new castings approved. Especially the 318/360 castings.

What 318 Chrysler with a roller cam is worth a 10.20 run? However, that is what the new 318 is capable of with the new castings. With the original castings, no way. Hemi head is no different.

Point still remains, they are making about 920HP, and Foder made 860HP with 1977-78 technology with a very similar RA-V with 1969 castings to the 426 Hemis of today. If we got improvements on castings, improvements with porting technology, and other parts, I dont think that 60HP difference would be hard to over come.

I talked to Foder yesterday, and there is a completely modern RA-V 428 already on the drawing board to whoop on any Hemi that wants to show up. $5500 titanium axles wont help them.

Lynn

[theoldone]

Lynn,

does it matter how much more the heads weigh ? Port volume and chamber volume is still regulated by the rules, correct ?- so no matter how thick the decks are and no matter how much port wall there is, you cannot port the head or raise the CR beyond the NHRA specs. You can only change the port shape, you can't add any port volume. If the Hemi guys want to run 25 extra pounds, it seems that would slow them down more than anything.

Even if worth 75HP, that is only 2-3 tenths at best to an 8-second car. Meaning they would still run 8.80's even with their old heads, if they are running 8.50's now with the new ones.

One of the main reasons for those replacement Mopar Hemi heads was, an original Hemi is too rare and expensive to race. With the replacement heads, racers had a cheaper, plentiful alternative and were not destroying the limited supply of vintage Hemi parts.

In the Ford's case, the original medium riser and high riser heads were also getting hard to find and valuable as well- so Dove Mfg. being devoted to the FE engine, makes replacement heads- and Ford stepped up and gave the part number.

We can't fault Ford and Mopar is they have some factory and aftermarket support, and we don't. Rather, it's Pontiac's fault for not doing the same for us.

When the IA block was released, Pontiac refused to give it a GM part number. So it's obvious we do not have the same relationship with our parent company.

If you make a new RA V head, Pontiac will have to put a GM part number on it to make it NHRA legal. I doubt they will. But I wish you good luck in that endeavor- and hope they do. It will be an uphill battle -and best of luck.

[theoldone]

Originally Posted by 7T2

wait a second, ch3no4 is fuel and oxidizer in one homogenous format. the reason why hemis did so well with nitro was because quench wasnt needed from semi hemi or wedge to promote combustion. therefore advantage in to the totally open hemi chamber w/ zero quench and therefore no valve shrouding. as for blown gas, the beating of the impellers served to "mix" the flow, once again negating the need for squish.
of course now though, i dont know how chrysler has improved the reintroduced hemi chamber for emissions... hmmmm

The Hemi with central spark plug and "half globe" chamber gives less "hot spots" to the ignition of the explosion and delivers smoother power.
The larger flame front allows the A/F mixture within the combustion
chamber to burn faster, which in turn allows the engine to be more
efficient, based on the brake specific fuel consumption.

You can push more air/fuel into a Hemi chamber and it will burn it all, make more power with it, and maintain a better BSFC number than a wedge. More HP per pound of fuel ingested with a Hemi, all other factors being the same.
With a wedge engine, at some point it just pushes the partially burned fuel out the exhaust and has not extracted as much power from it.

Add to it the Hemi has canted valves with increased airflow to begin with- the engine becomes a monster. That's why it ruled Top Fuel and Funny Car racing for the last 45 years. And has ruled SuperStock as well for a long time.

[theoldone]

http://www.raybarton.com/customers.html

Here's something interesting- Ray Barton did the heads on Biondo's Pontiac, he has it on his website- scroll down about half the page

Barton is known for the fastest SuperStock Hemi engines

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Old one,

No it doesnt matter how much they weigh, but how do you port where there is air or water? You cannot do external welding or weld in the combustion chamber area.

Remember CSA? Remember Choke? Vastly improved! Porting? They said at least 40-50 CFM more. Foder got 440 CFM.

These cars are running at least 1/2 second faster with the new stuff. They are running 1 inch lift cams with the new blocks, and 60MM cams to reduce flex. No way you are doing that with a stock Hemi block.

Of course a 455SD block that is no problem. Should be my advantage, but it was given to them for free.

Lynn

[theoldone]

Lynn- it wasn't given to them "free"- Mopar tooled up and made new blocks and heads themselves ! Now if Pontiac would do the same, you could run brand new Pontiac stuff that's better too- but Pontiac didn't- so we have to suck it up. SuperStock requires factory part numbers, and Pontiac isn't giving them out. You need to read up on the "new Hemi" then you'll realize why NHRA allowed them- they were made by Chrysler as replacements since 1992 with factory part numbers starting where the old serial numbers left off- so NHRA had to allow them. See link/writeup below. It was done due to a scarcity of parts, not to cheat the rules. You can't blame them for improving their engine.


http://www.allpar.com/mopar/hemi/newhemi.html

When production of the street Hemi® stopped in 1971, enthusiasts were faced with a gradually decreasing supply of Hemi service and performance parts. Although Direct Connection (now Mopar Performance) and numerous aftermarket vendors produced various items throughout the years, the "big stuff," blocks and heads, became rarer and more expensive as time went on. The musclecar collecting craze of the early 90s sent Hemi prices through the roof, and since most elephant motors weren't exactly babied thought their life, buyers of used parts had to be extremely wary. Hemi racers also had to deal with gradually decreasing power output and the possibility of violating NHRA specs as blocks wore and numerous valve jobs sunk the heads deeper into the combustion chambers.

Fortunately all of that has now changed. In December 1992 Mopar Performance began production of new 426 Hemi blocks, and since then have added heads, standard bore pistons and other parts so that is now possible to build a "new" 426 Hemi from scratch! The new block maintains the same outward appearance as the original (except for a new casting number), but has a thicker deck for better stiffness and gasket sealing. A pleasant side-effect of the improved rigidity is about 25 extra hp. Main caps are cross-bolted just like the original. Mopar Performance has even produced a version of the block with B/RB engine mounts, so a Hemi can now be dropped into a big block car without searching for an expensive Hemi k-member.

New heads and pistons followed in 1995, and fortunately Mopar Performance thought to see fit to produce a set of heads with hardened valve seats, so they can be ran safely on unleaded fuel. Now the only missing major piece is the original 2-4bbl intake manifold, although a single 4-bbl version is available and is probably more streetable. Of course, there's also a magnesium supercharger manifold available for all top fuel wanna-bees!

Racers and restorers alike have been well-served by the reintroduction of the Hemi. Demand has been high and it looks like the elephant will live on into the 21st century as the king of the asphalt jungle. Way to go Mopar Performance!

A Short List of Key 426 Hemi Part Numbers:
P4529850 Cast Iron 426 Street Hemi Block
P4529852 Cast Iron 426 Street Hemi Block w/ B/RB motor mount ears
P4529898 Cast Iron Street Hemi Head

P5249524 Cast Iron Dual Plug Street Hemi Head

P5249525 Cast Iron Street Hemi Head w/ hardened valve seats

P5249206 Resto Crankshaft (others available)

P5249436-37 10.25:1 cr. Hemi Pistons (others available)

P4529315-6 Original Equipment Hydraulic and Mechanical Camshafts

[Region Warrior]

So i guess it's ok to say hemi's are a better original design even though they have been revised/improved, at least what?, 5 times in the last 20 years. Whatever it takes i guess. I cant argue Pontiac dropped out.
And the new release's in showroom cars are so much faster then Ford, Gm, etc. What are the new factory hemis doing now in NHRA? Cant even beat a GM 2.4.
Ok, go to your favorite 2% records"of all drag racing in the world", and report back