[gtorich]

you guys are killing me.............i was just wondering if those tab things on the shaft are what your talking about with the tabs........lol

[Formulas]

yes those are the tabs in your first post they keep the driveshaft from popping up and out of place when you pull the dist

[Sirrotica]

I have seen the tangs spread on a couple of street engines, they didn't break off, but they weren't long for this world. I was lucky I pulled them down when I did.

On my dirt track big journal engines (originally a 69, 4 bolt main, 390 HP, 428) I ran an SD 80 # pump for 3 seasons. I wouldn't even think about running an 60# pump for a dirt track large journal engine. They're fine on a 3 inch main engine, and I've run them on street, and dirt track engines with no problems. Running 25 lap feature races, isn't the same as running 1/4 mile at a time.

My 80# pump driveshaft was the best one Pontiac had at the time, last time I had the pan off of the engine, the shaft looked fine.

[Sirrotica]

For clarification, the crimps on the sides of the shaft only keep the shaft from pulling out of the pump as you're removing the distributor. The tangs that break are on the end of the shaft that engage the flat blade on the oil pump shaft. When they shear, or spread, the shaft spins without the gears in the pump turning.

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Hmmm, do tell.............

Well, first of I'm just a novice at alot of this. My main trade was Electrician, but I absolutely love cars and mostly engines. Take this all with a grain of salt I guess.

Anyhow, I starting reading on rated flow with filters, micron rating, bypass valves in the oil filters, different filter media, Gallons per minute flow rate, burst rates, pressure rating on filters, construction of filters, anti check valves. Stuff like that. Reason I got reading about this was I'm running a Wix 51258 filter on my car and when I changed oil I cut the filter open and it looked awesome. There was no particles that I could see anywhere. I run a Wix 51069R on my wife's car with the IA2 engine. It's advertised as a racing filter. My understanding it needs to be changed more frequently, which I do. I wanted more flow and a higher burst rated filter. It flows 28 GPM and filters to 61 micron. I changed oil and it looked a bit darker or gray. No particles I could see, but I found the oil in my car with the 51258 to be cleaner. The 51258 filters to 21 microns and flows 9-11 GPM. This got me thinking that maybe the 50169R filter wasn't doing as good a job as I would like to see. My next research is to find out how much oil flow does an engine need at 7000 rpm. The ideal would be a filter that flows with less restriction and can clean down to the lowest micron. Best of both worlds. I know, probably over thinking this.

[chuckies76ta]

Some good info on testing filters. https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...9#post-5789087

Looks to be a very good filter with Beta ratings posted. http://royalpurple.dhchicagostagingt...Oil-Filter.pdf
Part # 30-1218

[Sirrotica]

FWIW, Pontiac made a plate that was an option on the 194 Tempest 4 cylinder that eliminated the full flow oil filter, so that you could install a by pass filter only. I know The California (legend in his own mind, BF) engine builder has used that system on some of the engines he builds so that the full flow is eliminated entirely, thus no restriction whatsoever. In a race application, he eliminates the oil filter entirely, depending upon only changing the oil very frequently to keep the oil clean.

Below is a picture of the elimination plate, which would be probably like looking for hen's teeth, but someone could easily make one from steel, or aluminum. It shows the plug that came in it so the owner could tap into the oil system for a by pass oil filter of their choice. Back when this option was offered, the owner could also go against the trend of using any oil filter, in lieu of frequent oil changes, like the engine manufactures did for many years, before the invention of the current full flow system. By eliminating the full flow filter you eliminate any restriction between the pump and internally oiled engine parts. If you choose to run a by pass filter, on a street application, you can still have clean oil, and zero restriction



I won't elaborate, because every time I do, the post degenerates into argument against the system I believe works very well to eliminate solids in the oil down to sub 5 microns. Then the thread gets closed, etc. etc.

Just food for thought, there are unconventional ways to achieve this type of a system, if you wish to. You can also run an inexpensive full flow that has coarse media, that would not filter to a high standard, but would be supplemented by a by pass filter, That would still give you low restriction in the path to the internal engine parts from the pump.

It's nice to speak with free thinker, that thinks outside of the box sometimes.....

I've been interested in filters, and oil for a long time, so I'm familiar with BITOG and I've studied up on the subject quite a bit. Education is a good tool when it comes to understanding the nuances of filters, and oil types. It does make a difference in longevity of engines, and oil life, if you care to educate yourself.

[chuckies76ta]

Hmm, first I've seen of that. That an easy unit to have C&C. out of an aluminum block. It would be interesting to try. Thanks for the post. Then there is these filters. https://hubbfilters.com/oil-filters/
Interesting stuff.

[Sirrotica]

Having a background in hydraulicly operated machines, as well as making my living for decades wrenching on cars, the filter system used is totally unlike a full flow automotive system is. Oil is never filtered between the pump and the part being lubricated, and fed high pressure liquids.

They choose to filter oil on the return side, or sometimes the suction side of the pump, or a combination of both. Of course hydraulically operated machines have a very low tolerance for fine particulate, and usually filter to a very high standard, usually under 10 microns.

[lust4speed]

Here's a closeup of a friend's Wix filter I cut open for him after the initial break-in. First visual on pulling the filter canister out after cutting it open looked okay. I take a serrated bread knife and cut the filter loose from the top and bottom tins and then spread the filter out on the workbench. Once the pleats are spread open the trash caught up deep in the inner folds shows up. This was a few years ago and the engine is doing fine today, but if the filter hadn't caught the initial junk it might not be living such a good life right now. You need a regular filter to catch the big stuff that comes loose.

In this case the friend sent out his heads to a local shop and he said they looked clean and were in plastic bags when he picked them up, so he just bolted them on. Turned out they were not so clean.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by chuckies76ta

Hmm, first I've seen of that. That an easy unit to have C&C. out of an aluminum block. It would be interesting to try. Thanks for the post. Then there is these filters. https://hubbfilters.com/oil-filters/
Interesting stuff.

It seems they do not make a filter for Pontiacs. Hubbs wire mesh filters are rated to 25 microns. Make Olds filters though ?
K & P makes a Pontiac wire mesh filter rated to 35 microns.
https://kandpengineering.com/

[AG]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

Here's a closeup of a friend's Wix filter I cut open for him after the initial break-in. First visual on pulling the filter canister out after cutting it open looked okay. I take a serrated bread knife and cut the filter loose from the top and bottom tins and then spread the filter out on the workbench. Once the pleats are spread open the trash caught up deep in the inner folds shows up. This was a few years ago and the engine is doing fine today, but if the filter hadn't caught the initial junk it might not be living such a good life right now. You need a regular filter to catch the big stuff that comes loose.

In this case the friend sent out his heads to a local shop and he said they looked clean and were in plastic bags when he picked them up, so he just bolted them on. Turned out they were not so clean.

That's a lot of debris.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

It seems they do not make a filter for Pontiacs. Hubbs wire mesh filters are rated to 25 microns. Make Olds filters though ?
K & P makes a Pontiac wire mesh filter rated to 35 microns.
https://kandpengineering.com/

https://www.amazon.com/HUBB-Filter-3.../dp/B01LGFGO02

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

Here's a closeup of a friend's Wix filter I cut open for him after the initial break-in. First visual on pulling the filter canister out after cutting it open looked okay. I take a serrated bread knife and cut the filter loose from the top and bottom tins and then spread the filter out on the workbench. Once the pleats are spread open the trash caught up deep in the inner folds shows up. This was a few years ago and the engine is doing fine today, but if the filter hadn't caught the initial junk it might not be living such a good life right now. You need a regular filter to catch the big stuff that comes loose.

In this case the friend sent out his heads to a local shop and he said they looked clean and were in plastic bags when he picked them up, so he just bolted them on. Turned out they were not so clean.

If you put together an engine that is contaminated, you aren't doing the job correctly. Hoping the oil filter corrects your oversight, is a pretty poor example of craftsmanship. It might have saved the engine, but the dirt shouldn't have been there in the first place. If you're starting out without engine contamination, you could get away without the full flow filter, just as Pontiac made the Tempests, without a filter.

Evidently Pontiac had enough faith in their builds to deliver a car without any oil filter to the customer, at least up until 1963. Before oil filters were standard, they built millions of cars without them, just relying on the customer to flush the engine with fresh oil every 1000 miles, or less. That's how the, "change your oil every 1000 miles", came about, engines that didn't have oil filters, unless you checked the option box to have it added on at extra cost.

Many small engines don't have filters, some don't have oil pumps, they'll run a long time if you pay attention to the maintenance schedule. Same goes for the old pancake 4 cylinder VW's, just a coarse screen in the crankcase, no oil filters in millions of them, over decades of production. I owned a 62 Beetle, back in 1969, no filters, unless the owner added one.

[GOAT8U2]

Not to high jack but..

I've lost an engine to a broken oil pump shaft, not even 10k miles on the engine but it was a 22 year old rebuild with parts in it that were older, I believe the oil pump shaft was much older.

New 60lb Melling oil pump in new 461ci sees 60lbs at start up on 10w-30 but goes into the mid 70s with little acceleration cold and even low 70s warm during hard acceleration.

That seem normal?

[chuckies76ta]

I would say yes. The pressure is always going to be higher when the oil is colder. As the engine heats up, which in turn heats the oil, the pressure drops down on idle. My does the same as yours pretty much. I'm running a 60 lb too. Just remember there are 2 ports which one can measure oil pressure on our engines. The one at the oil filter housing measures the pump pressure, and the one by the distributor measures after the oil filter, pretty much what the engine is seeing.