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#21
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I had a recent conversation with Paul Carter. He's been using the newest CC HR lifters. They have the oil hole in the correct location, no need to perform the small grinding mod in the lifter bore, that Paul helped us with. He had no bad words for these newest HR lifters. Thanks. PAUL!!!
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1977 Black Trans Am 180 HP Auto, essentially base model T/A. I'm the original owner, purchased May 7, 1977. Shut it off Shut it off Buddy, I just shut your Prius down... |
#22
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i run 10/30 on my CC "S" lifters based on what comp & SD suggested. they both suggested the seafoam on the early style lifters that were tickers but it made no difference for me. i use 10/30 based on my engine builders recommendation for an engine built mainly for the street, 20-25 psi at hot idle.
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#23
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I don't mean to say thicker will fix the problem, but it stands to reason the thin stuff they used to preach probably isn't helping the matter with what we have to work with now. It could be a whole number of little things that might help the situation, or not. I agree adjustment is a big player, and many ways to do it. Bottoming the lifter might be the solution, although I've never had to do that myself, but many here have with success. Playing a smaller roll would be oil pressure, oil viscosity, and even brand of oil. On a lesser scale some of the noise could be the choice of roller rocker as well. |
#24
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comp & other places like SD still suggest 10/30 for hyd roller lifters today.
their reasoning is inline with using a thinner vs overly thick oil in engines not dedicated for racing purposes or high heat desert type use as long as it provides adequate psi. oil flow in/out of bearings & lifters is more important than having too thick of oil thinking it provides more of a "cushion". of course there are variables in different types/brands of oils, a thicker synthetic will usually cold pour better than a slightly thinner conventional, but as a general suggestion most places suggest 10/30 for these modern hyd roller lifters as well as engines built to "street" tolerances. if you have noisy lifters its easy to experiment with a slightly thicker oil like 10/40, 15/40 or even 20/50 if youre in a hotter climate. |
#25
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My point is they've been suggesting that for decades, way back when lifters and internal clearances and tolerances weren't an issue. Even though I never found thicker to be a problem, the thinner stuff would also make sense, "IF" you have a properly built lifter that bleeds down correctly. And therein lies the problem. The whole issue I have now with this deal, these days we've heard all the complaints of internal lifter tolerances being all over the map, bleed down rates that are absolutely horrible and everyone bottoming out adjustment to take the bleed down problems out of the equation. So I don't really care who says they still recommend thinner oil because in theory, the lifter isn't going to like thin oil if the tolerances aren't tight and honestly thick oil viscosity isn't going to be as much of a concern anymore. I'm speaking of just lifters for sake of this discussion, not taking into account other engine clearances. |
#26
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in my experience the comp "s" lifters like thinner 10/30 oil, i dont have any major noise issues, just a slight tick when fully hot & that could be from the alum heads expanding, i plan to try tightening the adjustment a little or using cliffs procedure if it bothers me enough. but even when fully heat soaked its hit or miss if it is noticeable, could be the roller rockers making some the noise too? compared to the 1st set of the older comp lifters, the newer "s" lifters comp replaced them with are very close to silent 90% of the time, when they do make a little noise its about the same as my comp XE FT cam/lifters in another car. |
#27
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The problem with lifter manufactures still suggesting this thin oil today, is they are in denial that there is even a lifter problem, so for anyone to still take their suggestions on oil viscosity seems a little sketchy to say the least. How can we listen to a cam manufacture tell us we still need 10-30 oil in our hydraulic rollers when they won't admit they have a manufacture defect?? See what I mean? I'm not saying one is right or wrong, but there is definitely some questionable stuff here worth looking at. Last edited by Formulajones; 12-04-2022 at 01:17 PM. |
The Following User Says Thank You to Formulajones For This Useful Post: | ||
#28
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Ok - so yesterday I checked things out and the noise is definitely from the passenger side. While I was in there I tried Cliff’s method - went through the firing order for intake and exhaust. Bottomed out each lifter and then backed out one full turn. It still ticks at 800 rpm idle. It doesn’t tick at highway idle so I assume they are pumping up with more RPM. Oil pressure at hot idle is 30, cruising RPM is 60 psi, high idle cold is ~70 psi. Oil is 10W30.
It also occurred to me - over a month ago I did a compression test (cold) on this engine and then a leak down test (hot). The compression on #6 cylinder was 175 psi and all others were 150- 155 psi. The engine has 9.3 compression. Here are the leak-down test results done with engine at full temperature, all plugs out and each cylinder tested at TDC. Left hand gauge at 90 PSI 1 = 86 psi 8= 84 psi 4= 85 psi 3= 85 psi 6= 84 psi (this is the cylinder with high compression) 5= 85 psi 7= 84 psi 2 = 84 psi Could the higher compression reading on #6 be the result of the lifter(s) bleeding down on low rpm and not opening the valves enough- and therefore not releasing cylinder pressure at the same rate as the others? Some videos of idle RPM vs high idle during cold start-up. Ignore the loose PS pump belt… Idle RPM: https://youtu.be/G47H3BL1s_U Hi idle: https://youtu.be/nko8XB4-nqc
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears ‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: work in progress Last edited by grivera; 12-04-2022 at 02:24 PM. |
#29
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I have always run 10/30 Mobil 1 with my hyd rollers.The latest CC lifters have replaceable cartridge inserts.Made in the USA by a company in the Edelbrock group.They look exactly like the Shaver made CC lifters.Tom
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The Following User Says Thank You to tom s For This Useful Post: | ||
#30
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I'm anxious to try a set of those on an engine sitting here. Much easier to swap the cartridge, and maybe a good idea to keep a few extra on hand in case of an issue to minimize down time.
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#31
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My next engine will have them,just trying to get a 455 out of the shop to deliver to the restoration shop
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#32
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Getting difficult to keep up with Comp. Is it the latest, even more latest, or the last latest lifter...
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Mick Batson 1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon. |
#33
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The Comp S (I believe it was called) from 2-3 years ago had the oil band in the correct location. I've had them next to a pair of Pontiac hydraulic rollers from Johnson (sold by Comp) and there was an obvious oil band height difference. Posted pictures of that on here a few times.
No idea what Comp is calling them now. I'd like to see a picture. Especially if they are those new cartridge style. |
#34
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He spoke of testing, not sure if in car or dyno.
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1977 Black Trans Am 180 HP Auto, essentially base model T/A. I'm the original owner, purchased May 7, 1977. Shut it off Shut it off Buddy, I just shut your Prius down... |
#35
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Mick,these are the newest,the ones before were the Shavers and the ones before that were made by Johnson.This goes back at least 15 years.The newest ones look exactly like the Shaver made except for a replaceable cartridge somewhat like a OHC 6.I believe there is a Youtube video on them.Pretty interesting.Tom
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#36
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They are called Evolution.Tom
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#37
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Colapsed lifter on an intake will definitely cause high compression because it closes the valve early compared to the others. Compression starts when the valve shuts.
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'78 Macho T/A DKM#95, 460cid, SRP pistons, KRE 310 D ports, 3" pypes, Hooker 1 3/4" headers, hydraulic roller, 10" Continental, 3.42 gears 11.5 @117.5mph 3900lbs ([_|_] ##\|/##[_|_]) |
The Following User Says Thank You to jonmachota78 For This Useful Post: | ||
#38
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The odd part is that up to just a few years ago when you bought Comp lifters you never knew what you'd get in the box until you opened them. |
#39
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To my knowledge the "Evolution" lifters from comp which appear to have Shaver bodies with a rebuildable cartridge, are not yet available for Pontiac applications.
If you were to buy hydraulic roller lifters for something today, it appears that the Johnson Lifters that can be sourced through Butler are the best available.
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-Jason 1969 Pontiac Firebird |
#40
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JBP allows the Evolution lifters to be added to the sales cart:
https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...-85701-16.html
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears ‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: work in progress |
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