[dammen8]

Hey Robert C. You have a private message thanks

Chad

[grnmnstr]

From me too.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by The Mighty T/A

Good Questions!

I run an IAII with both decks dry. I used a Cummins (Yeah, I work for Detroit, so promating their product just about makes me puke) epoxy called "Titanium Putty" and filled the holes in the head, layed them surface down on a sheet of aluminum foil, then touched the heads with a surfacer. Perfect! A year now with well over 1000 street miles and no problems at all. Same 55gpm Mezeire pushed though the front of the e-heads first. Then, through the block in a crossing pattern. 31" Griffin 2 1.25" rows and a giant electric fan. In 110 degree temps with street driving, traffic and freeway, it never goes over 180. On an 8 second pass with much nitrous, it never goes over 190. I have no holes in the surface whatsoever. I'll take some pics soon.

My suggestion: Just do it!

Robin-

Hate to dis agree with ya dude, but issues can results with a long term high mileage set up.

[J.C.you]

converting my two IA blocks back to conventional cooling. i had problems with one with a hot spot between the two center exhaust valves driving on the street some.

why do this when the cometic gaskets are available now? why go to the extra expense, time involved, and lines, in the way, on the back of the block?

[mikeb]

For a race application using a power adder I see it as a safety issue. If the coolant holes are present and a head gasket lets go it might pressurize the cooling system, blowing off a hose (or causing some other kind of coolant leak). If that coolant then gets under the rear tires you will be off on mr. toad's wild ride.

Sounds like for a street app having the coolant holes is the way to go.

[J.C.you]

have a new set of 4.38"x .050" copper gaskets, still in the wrapper, 55 bucs+ ship, if someone wants to dry deck their app........

[GTO]

Ok, about the billet plugs. I'm missing something. The allen head plugs are recessed but what would it matter? You screw in the plugs, resurface the block and it's drydecked. The small allen head recess should not make a diff. What am I missing? ... Eric.

[grnmnstr]

GTO,
If I'm not mistaken, the aluminum plugs go into the aluminum heads (aluminum in aluminum, not dissimilar metals). Since the IA2 comes with no coolant holes in the deck, it is already dry decked. We are talking about plugging the heads so no coolant can enter past the head gasket into the CC.

[bad69bird]

Originally Posted by mikeb

For a race application using a power adder I see it as a safety issue. If the coolant holes are present and a head gasket lets go it might pressurize the cooling system, blowing off a hose (or causing some other kind of coolant leak). If that coolant then gets under the rear tires you will be off on mr. toad's wild ride.

Sounds like for a street app having the coolant holes is the way to go.

Good point! One thing that people over look is putting a -16an or -20an fittings on their radiator hoses. It's a little bit more expensive, but it's worth the piece of mind!

-Brian

[cgeise]

GTO -- I have used the allen head plug in the heads also -- not a problem -- all you are trying to do is keep water out of the deck/bore area -- but I did use the good aluminum plugs for consistant expansion

[The Mighty T/A]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Hate to dis agree with ya dude, but issues can results with a long term high mileage set up.

Anything is possible. But, it has been "Thoroughly" tested. No issues to date. Why do you feel so strongly about the necessity of the holes?

[GTO]

My mistake. The plugs are for the head. Keep forgetting that the IA II has a dry deck. I was just wondering what the harm was with regular aluminum allen plugs like the ones from Rusell. My question was answered, thank you. ... Eric

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by The Mighty T/A

Anything is possible. But, it has been "Thoroughly" tested. No issues to date. Why do you feel so strongly about the necessity of the holes?

This might come out not as I think but here goes..........
First; You don't need all the holes the factory installed in the block. Having done quite a few 400 SBC and other siamesed cylinder blocks for various applications over 35 plus years, you can run into areas in the block that will have higher water temps in cetain areas with front to back cooling without bleed off and thus distortion in the cylinder. Piston expansion can be affected and skirt issues result. Center exh valve or guide issues can result. Heat in the 2 center ports and excesive temps in that location. Remember that 80% of the heat is in the top of the block. Piston skirt design can create scoring if even temps around the cylinder aren't controlled. Coated pistons are less affected. More clearance will show less of an issue.
If this wasn't a factor, all engines would have sealed decks and thus the current trend in head gasket design with more then usual blown head gaskets would be solved trying to make then current engines run cool with todays degraded fuels (unleaded and lower octane levels) and higher water temps to pass emmisions. The sealed deck deal was originally for waterless competition application in drag only & Nitro cars. Short hops along with higher rpms to allow the water to circulated at a faster rate and not air lock or say stagnite in a certain spot because of the cylinder curve are less prone to have distortion in the cylinder walls over a shorter period of time.
I build a 505 to 572 cu.in Pontiac crate engine that are basically out of the box parts for customers that want that BBC 502 deal. 10,000 miles a year so shouldn't be an issue with the IA 2 blocks. If prepped right.
The thicker cylinders of the IA 2 also allow better heat disapation that the thinner factory blocks can't do.
I also offer that same deal in race only form. Then I would recommend the soild deck deal. Same deal as taking water from the back of the head and running it to the water crossover in the front. To pull already hot water away from the head to maximize cooling and control heat in the top part of the engine. And ideal engine would see the same temps front to back in all 8 cylinders, but this cannot happen unless certain areas are addresssed and modified to try and achieve this.
Same reason the water pump hole in the front of the SBC is blocked for racing where it contacts #2 cylinder in the pass side of the engine. It's there from the factory to bleed water into that side till the thermostat opens and maintain some cooling effect. Not necessary in a race application with a restrictor or open system. Same deal as pulling water out of the center freeze plugs to lower temps in tha region on early SBC 400's for road racing.
Same reason SBC with siamese center exhaust valves (and an issue with Pontiac too for center cylinder heat and higher temps in that area) take and pull water from the center of the head and run it to the water crossover.
I would rather the aftermarket aluminum head manufactures make some kind of access to that area to pull water to the front water crossover if they continue to design a head that isn't an I.R. head.
The IA blocks are fully siamese, not like the factory blocks that are siamesed only about half way up and can cool the cylinder somewhat 360 degrees. With a siamese cylinder, the cylinder develops a high temp closer to the cylinder wall connections and if you vent the block, you will allow cooler water to pass thru the block into the head to be run back to the front and cooled quicker and more evenly. But not needed toward the front as much with an incomming cooler water temp.


This can go on for pages. Anybody can do whatever they want. I just know what I do for each and every seperate application.
When ya put it together yourself, you have only you to blame..... or attempt to blame someone else. LOL. Builders have enough issues doing piece work for others and then the customer puts it together, has an issue and wants to blame the shop for his (the customers) lack of forsight, ability or knowledge in that field.
I blame magazine, TV and the internet for trying to make {b] Performance Engine Building [/b] seem simple. Yes, these sources do help and I do like the fact that more info is available that only previously trial and error, manufacturing issues, etc, was the only way to see what worked and what didn't, but it does also have it's downside. Not *****'in, just stating my perspective.


So remember, If I put it together I have to answer not only to the customer, but also 'everyone else' he drags into the senerio or tells 'his side' of the story to. And it seems tha tmost of the time, businesses take the brunt of the punishment, not his fellow ( and I hate to use this term) hobbyist. LOL.

Drill it, don't drill it. Seal it, don't seal it. Each case is different. I just know what I will do so I can try and control long term issues.

The Dude goes Long winded again. Bwhahahahahaha.

[The Mighty T/A]

Dude! That was a good answer. Long winded (your words) but worthy info for many. Here is what I think: Most "spot" cooling issues are directly related to pushing water into the block and letting it find the path of least resistance through all those holes in the surfaces. Lines from the back of a SBC relieve stagnant water that forms at the back of the block, hottest part of the engine, furthest from the pump. Also a much more dramatic problem as you state in endurance forms of racing. Understanding the temp issues related to siamesed cylinders (worth the gains in rigidity for drag racing) cannot be fixed. Pushing coolant through the heads, then through the block makes for very improved heat distribution in the engine. Especially with a 55gpm pump. Do what makes you feel comfortable for sure. You are a smart man for sure, but I think the holes are unnecessary. JMO!

[Tom Vaught]

Marty Palbykin and I used a Bonneville/ Indy Car gas ring along with a solid deck/heads about 1996 and when used with alcohol assured that NO WATER was going to go into the cylinders if the heads DID lift.
Marty later was able to use a solid steel ring in the same manner that was cheaper. Both worked well to seal the combustion pressures. NO HEAD GASKETS were used.

With a gas motor and trying to run on the street, I think Dude has some valid points.

I *****ed at BOB C and FRANK G for months to seal the IA-2 deck and let the racers/ engine builders decide if they wanted the holes or not. Thanks again guys for that effort.

As far as the heads go, aluminum plugs are the only way to go with threaded plugs. Machine off the plug to the deck surface and then true up the whole surface as the head will move.

Tom V.

[Rob]

Absolutely right about trying to avoid stagnant water, also agree with you that the big pump will help, but when you block the deck off you create more trapping stagnant water/air/steam pockets than you would if you use water transfer from block to head(least in the middle areas of the engine...in my opinion). I doubt you ever see a dry deck V-8 block of any kind perform and last on a road course.

I think few people understand that combusion pressure isn't as high as many believe and the pressure spike doesn't stay max very long. Keeping everything cool is a bigger problem.

-Rob

WWW.ICTCengines.com