Then and Now - Page 2 - PY Online Forums

KVman389 · #21 12-17-2004, 06:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

remember when pontiac was forced to use the chevy 350's statring in the 80's ? those engines evolved into the LT1 then the LS1 now the LS2. what other GM camaker was using these 350's ? buick? caddy? oldsmobile? as i remember it was a chevy engine and pontiac was forced into using the motor. pontiac didnt choose to use it. wasnt their motor. so thats why it is a chevy motor. this dosent sound of a hard concept to understand. might be tough for some of us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell me, what parts of the LS1 is shared with the LT1 or SBC? Please show me a link from http://www.GM.com where it says the LS1 is a "Chevrolet" motor. PLEASE. I'll be waiting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets see, the LS1 is a 350cid engine. Who creared the 350, Chevy or GM? After all, the 350 is what, about 40 years old? As far as interchangable parts, evolution has taken care of that; and please, there are resources other than gm.com, though probably not as biased so you would not accept their information as factual. Please, no questions, (as is your style), look them up yourself. The 350 may be technically a GM motor, but you must admit, it is generally considered a Chevy motor. Thank you for your time, and have a good day

Mr_GTO · #22 12-17-2004, 07:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by KVman389:

Lets see, the LS1 is a 350cid engine. Who creared the 350, Chevy or GM? After all, the 350 is what, about 40 years old? As far as interchangable parts, evolution has taken care of that; and please, there are resources other than gm.com, though probably not as biased so you would not accept their information as factual. Please, no questions, (as is your style), look them up yourself. The 350 may be technically a GM motor, but you must admit, it is generally considered a Chevy motor. Thank you for your time, and have a good day

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's 346 actually. And again, we are not talking about the old SBC 350. We are talking about the LS1. Stick to the subject at hand.
GM makes the engine. Why would I look at other sources who call it a Chevy. they are just as wrong as you.

So you can't provide a link from GM stating it is a Chevy engine either uh? Thanks for playing.

David Jones · #23 12-17-2004, 07:50 AM

http://www.gm.com/company/racing/tec...tteC5R.htm#top

Mr_GTO · #24 12-17-2004, 08:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Jones:
http://www.gm.com/company/racing/tec...tteC5R.htm#top <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What paragraph states the LS1 is a Chevrolet V8 again? I must be missing it.

KVman389 · #25 12-17-2004, 08:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by KVman389:

Lets see, the LS1 is a 350cid engine. Who creared the 350, Chevy or GM? After all, the 350 is what, about 40 years old? As far as interchangable parts, evolution has taken care of that; and please, there are resources other than gm.com, though probably not as biased so you would not accept their information as factual. Please, no questions, (as is your style), look them up yourself. The 350 may be technically a GM motor, but you must admit, it is generally considered a Chevy motor. Thank you for your time, and have a good day

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's 346 actually. And again, we are not talking about the old SBC 350. We are talking about the LS1. Stick to the subject at hand.
GM makes the engine. Why would I look at other sources who call it a Chevy. they are just as wrong as you.

So you can't provide a link from GM stating it is a Chevy engine either uh? Thanks for playing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

346-350, splitting hairs are we? Ah yes, GM, Gods mouth. anything else is blasphamy.

The Chevrolet Gen III LS1
The First Look at the New GM Small-Block

By Jeff Smith
Photography: Jeff Smith

The most enduring engine in automotive history is about to change. The small-block Chevy is and will continue to be the most popular powerplant in the history of racing and high performance, but its legendary interchangeability will end within the next few years. Change is inevitable. Were it not for engineering, we might still be hot rodding flathead fours or mastodonic steam engines. So it is inescapable that the small-block should improve.
But rather than a eulogy for the original small-block, consider this a celebration for the heir to the throne. The new third-generation small-block, or Gen III, will be called the LS1, yet that one letter shift from the LT1 signals that this new engine is more evolution than revolution compared to the original 265. Squint your eyes and you’ll still see a small-block Chevy.

The GM Powertrain engineers were not deprived of a sense of history. The new LS1 is both similar yet vastly different. The new Mouse motor is still a 90-degree V8 employing 350 cubic inches of classic pushrod, two-valve power. While GM’s engineers had a “clean sheet of paper” to work with, the intricacy and complexity of a single- or double-overhead-cam engine didn’t pass muster.

This is where the 41-year-old Mouse motor and the new LS1 split genes. The new small-block shares nothing more than the same 4.40-inch bore spacing when it comes to the engine’s design. Frankly, except for the hydraulic-roller lifters and rod bearings, nothing interchanges with the previous small-block. Given that, let’s take a closer look at the new small-block Chevy for the third millennium.

To begin with, the LS1 will debut exclusively in the all-new ’97 Corvette. The engine is rated at 345 horsepower at 5600 rpm, with 350 lb-ft of torque at 4400 rpm. The block is all aluminum, with iron cylinder liners that are cast in place when the block is poured. The foundation is based on a Y-block design where the pan rail extends below the crankshaft centerline. While this adds weight, it more importantly adds strength and offers the opportunity for cross-bolted main caps. Overall, the LS1 is roughly 100 pounds lighter than the old aluminum-headed LT1, in addition to being shorter in height and length.

The sturdy main caps are powdered metal, held in place with four vertical and two horizontal fasteners. Block engineer Brian Kaminski also relocated the thrust bearing to the ideal center main cap, where it is less affected by thermal expansion of the block. While displacement is still 350 cubic inches, the bore/stroke relationship has changed to 3.90/3.62 inches (as opposed to 4.00/3.48). Perhaps the most significant change for those considering serious performance enhancements is the shift from the small-block’s strong five head bolts per cylinder to four larger and longer head bolts. According to Product Manager John Juriga, this improves cylinder sealing by creating a more manageable bore distortion and improving head gasket clamping. Removing one head bolt also allowed for optimizing the valvetrain and intake ports’ positioning.

The crankshaft remains a ductile cast-iron casting, yet offers wider rolled fillets for additional strength. The most significant change to the crank is in the new firing order (1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3), which will probably qualify as the next new Chevy trivia question. Juriga claims a slight improvement in crankshaft balance and stress while moving the adjacent firing cylinders from 5 and 7 to 1 and 3. The crankshaft is also internally balanced to minimize bending forces.

The connecting rods are also powdered metal like the LT1’s but are “cracked,” meaning that the cap-to-rod interface is actually broken rather than machined. This creates a stronger cap position on the rod without the need for dowel pins. The new LS1 also enjoys a 0.398-inch-longer (6.098 inches) rod length, making the rod-length-to-stroke ratio 1.68:1 versus the LT1’s 1.63:1 ratio.

It's not GM, but hey, like I said, generally considered a Chevy

David Jones · #26 12-17-2004, 08:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I must be missing it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes

The Champ · #27 12-17-2004, 08:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trace:
Grand Am?! Wait a minute, Randy... you are converting it to rwd, right? Have to be - and that would be very cool!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Grand Am was originally RWD, and Randy's is a RWD car...

Mr_GTO · #28 12-17-2004, 09:00 AM

Jeff Smith doesn't work for GM and that was an article by Jeff Smith, not from anyone at GM. Keep trying...

Tripower455 · #29 12-17-2004, 09:00 AM

I am really dissapointed that Pontiac chose to put an SBC in the new GTO and recent 'birds. They really should have used "real" Pontiac power.........the Iron Duke!

The LS-1 shares bore spacing and rod journal size with the traditional SBC. Other than that, it was a clean sheet engine. Comparing it to a SBC is no different than comparing it to a RA-IV, which, BTW, is never coming back. They are completely different animals with similar displacement.

GM went to the SBC family in the late '70s for one reason. COST. They were much cheaper to manufacture than the better quality and more durable BOPC engines but gave adequate performance and longevity to the average end user.

The LS-1 is a very good engine. Better overall, imho, than anything GM has ever made for a performance car. It does it all well. Good performance, reliability, durability and fuel economy. There really are no compromises, other than brand recognition. The traditional SBC was, by any standards, a compromise. It was designed to be cheaply manufactured and put in GM's cheapest cars.

We are in a new millenium guys. The SD/tripower/RAIV etc. as we know them are never coming back. As long as the LS-1/2 is around, Pontiac doesn't need to waste resources re-engineering a performance engine.

The Champ · #30 12-17-2004, 09:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Jones:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I must be missing it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the way your link reads:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>"Before the introduction of the LS1, almost every V-8 engine used for racing dated back to designs that originated in the mid-'50s," said Doug Duchardt, director of GM Racing. "The GM small-block V-8 that was the cornerstone of America's racing industry for nearly 50 years is being replaced by derivatives of the LS1...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The SBC has been replaced by the GM Powertrain LS1...

And from KV's posted article above:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The new small-block shares nothing more than the same 4.40-inch bore spacing when it comes to the engine’s design. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GM Powertrain started with a clean sheet of paper and designed an engine that has a nominal size of 350 ci. Seeing as how Buick, Olds, Pontiac and Chevy all had 350 ci of their own in the past, the displacement of said engine does not make it a Chevy.

It's GM.

Goathead · #31 12-17-2004, 09:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Seeing as how Buick, Olds, Pontiac and Chevy all had 350 ci of their own in the past, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thus the name "corporate engine".....

KVman389 · #32 12-17-2004, 10:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
Jeff Smith doesn't work for GM and that was an article by Jeff Smith, not from anyone at GM. Keep trying... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you read the last line of that post? He does however write for a car magazine which you have referenced.

David Jones · #33 12-17-2004, 10:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You must have missed the beginning....

The Champ · #34 12-17-2004, 11:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Jones:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You must have missed the beginning.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then, using your logic, the LS1 is actually derived from the 331 ci Kettering OHV V8 first used by Cadillac in 1949.

So now go and complain we have a Cadillac motor in the new GTO. That would be more correct than claiming it was a Chevy.

David Jones · #35 12-17-2004, 12:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't really morph the above statement by GM from GM's own web site into anything about a Cadillac. I'm not using logic here, that would be a waste of time. Posted a quote from GM. You're supplying the changes.

Goathead · #36 12-17-2004, 01:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I'm not using logic here, that would be a waste of time. Posted a quote from GM. You're supplying the changes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Logic, what's logic got to do with this thread?...

And anyway, where are you going to get some?....

David Jones · #37 12-17-2004, 02:29 PM

Ok, well maybe you have a point.....

RandyW · #38 12-17-2004, 03:05 PM

AS I stated before, the only sbc parts that interchange with an ls engine, are the rod bearings! It is a total clean sheet design by the GM Powertrain Div. of General Motors. If that makes it a Chevy in someone's book, so be it!

The Champ · #39 12-17-2004, 05:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Jones:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't really morph the above statement by GM from GM's own web site into anything about a Cadillac. I'm not using logic here, that would be a waste of time. Posted a quote from GM. You're supplying the changes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not that hard, and is actually more correct.

They refer to GM's family of OHV V-8's. Well, the first one was the 331 CI Cadillac. And taking it back even further, it was Cadillac that brought the first mass production V8 to market - I believe in 1914.

The LS1 is a new design. Your own link states that it is replacing the SBC, not an extenuation of it.

Bottom line, the LS1 family of engines is GM. Not Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Olds (RIP), or Cadillac.

David Jones · #40 12-17-2004, 08:15 PM

I don't see the bottom line in the same light. According to GM the sbc is the ancestor to the ls1.