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#21
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Andya,
That was 2007 when you saw the BlackBird. That is when we parked in Downtown Birmingham on Old Woodward Ave just south of the Chevy display. Yes, Jim Wangers was in the tent on the grassy median near the cars. The Geeto Tiger broke a caliper on the way down and wasn't there. But the "Wangers" Judge was. 2008 - 2010 we have been parked on the East side of "new' Woodward Ave just south of Lavery Land Rover in the side lot and in front of Baker Furniture. The part of Woodward that everyone cruises on. Eric
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 Last edited by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer; 12-19-2010 at 10:37 PM. |
#22
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Keith,
You are welcome. I got an e-mail from both you and Tenney. You know how I hate these things.... Eric
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 |
#23
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Quote:
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#24
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Thank you Tenney. But I don't know as much as you think I know. Or maybe I'm in complete denial of how much I really know.. and who I know.
Have a nice Holiday Eric
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 |
#25
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That was a great read Eric.
I have a question that I hope you don't mind me asking. In the PE article it mentions that Jim gave you the car... is that gave you the car to keep or gave you the car to freshen up and display etc? Either way, a great story about the car and thanks for taking the time to share it here. |
#26
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Steve,
Here is how the story goes...I've been friends with Jim Wangers for years. I have done little things for him now and than as a favor through the years. One night when Jim was at the house for dinner he asked me if I knew anyone who wanted to buy the Black Bird. I said no because I had my own projects, '66 Geeto Tiger clone, and I just wasn't interested in the car. A year later Jim brought up the subject of the Blackbird again at Milan Dragway. I had now sold the '66 GTO project to Jack "Doc" Watson's barber and said I was now interested. Another few months went by and Jim called me from California and said he was giving me the Blackbird. I responsed, Ok how much? Jim repeated, I'm giving you the car. I repeated, OK, how much? Jim now stated....Listen to me closely...I'm giving you the car for all the things you have done for me through the years. I told him I can not except it for free. Jim than said in a stern voice, fine give me a buck. I thought about it for a milli second and said, fine tell them I'm running over to the office and getting the car. Before I woke up from this dream I ran over and had Jim's Detroit office secretary call Jim in California. She did. Jim told her to pull the title for the car and I give to Eric. Than take the dollar he gave you and keep it for the paper work she had just done. It was now a legal trans action. Jim was nice enough to let me keep the Blackbird at his shop behind the office while we rebuilt the car. Wow, as I look back that was almost 17 years ago..... Time really does fly.
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 Last edited by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer; 12-21-2010 at 10:42 AM. |
#27
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Was it originally built as a RA I car? It's my understanding that the cars Pete McCarthy & Truman Fields got were also RA I cars and the RA II heads met up with them later.
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Some guys they just give up living And start dying little by little, piece by piece, Some guys come home from work and wash up, And go racin' in the street. Bruce Springsteen - Racing In The Street - 1978 |
#28
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The Blackbird was built December, 1967 as a Ram Air I, Turbo Hydramatic (column shift no console), Radio Push Button, Cluster-Rally Guages (No Tac), Glass Soft Ray - All Windows, Floor Mats front and back, F70X14 Nylon Red Line Tires (Steel Wheels Dog Dish Hub Caps).
The Ram Air I came with the hood and carb pans, chrome valve covers, flex fan, 3.90 posi rear end.... It was delieved to Stan Long Pontiac for Tony Kneiper, Parts Mgr. Tony got the Ram Air II heads as soon as PMD engineering released them to him. The Detroit Ponitac Racing Dealerships, ie, Royal, Packard and Stan Long always had the inside track on everyone else around the country. They could drive over to PMD engineering and get just about anything they wanted. These dealerships had friends on the inside that would just about do anything for them.This was real back door racing....... If you look at some old pictures of Dick Jesse's (Ace Wilson's Performance Salesman)'65 and '66 GTO's you'll see it was sponsored by Stan Long and not Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac who employed him. This is stuff you will not get from reading Pete's books or magazines, or even get from Jim Mattison's Pontiac Historic Services... On the other hand Jim Mattison told me that according to his build sheets nO Ram Air II cars where delivered to Royal Pontiac. I did have a friend, Les Goodman, who's dad told Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac to build any engine his son wanted. This was after someone poured sugar in his tank and moth balls in his radiator that distroyed the original 400. Les went for a 428 Ram Air II for his '68 GTO. I can't speak for Pete and Truman about their cars.
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 Last edited by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer; 12-21-2010 at 03:48 PM. |
#29
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Dr Schiffer thanks for the history of the Firebird and the GTX etc...You mention in your earlier post that Wangers used a 1970 455 in the Firebird with the RAIV heads and a what if scenario.
In Schornack's book(page 169), he mentions building a 440 motor with a Brian Ballish for Wangers 1968 Firebird. HE also mentions a ThermoQuad carb and engine work by Diamond Engine Services and a General Kinetics cam. Is this the correct displacement or just a bad memory on Milts part? I know Wanger's likes to run 440 combos. Thanks for the very interesting history of this car, Don
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1966 GTO 1966 421-9.3-1 comp-Race Tec 23cc Pistons 1966 Tri-Power 1967 670 Heads Pontiac "Highlift" TriPower Cam by SpeedPro DUR 214 Int 224 Exh @.050 - 107 ICL LIFT .445" Int .465" Exh Tri-Y-Headers by Tribal Tubes w/ Goerlich Mufflers 1966 Muncie Wide Ratio 4-Speed 1968-72 Chevy 12 Bolt Rear End w/ 3.73 rear gears |
#30
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No Milt was not wrong....They used an Engineering 455 Block that had more internal webbing. Simular to the later SD 455 block. The Crank Shaft was a well prepared 428 by Jim Cornell. The 455 Bore and the 428 crank shaft stroke made for a 440. Higher reving than a 455 and moved torque up. This was a very light weight car and didn't need low end but need to rev. The suspension couldn't handle it. You'll notice that Milt mentioned the people bet it was a Chevy. That is because they had never seen a Pontiac shift at 6,500-7,000 RPMs before. It almost sounded like a Chevy too. The heads where ported by Butch Elkin at Diamond Elkin. Brian Ballish is to get credit for these engine combinations and assemblies.
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 |
#31
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Do you happen to have any back in the day stories of Roger Lee?
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#32
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The Late "Ram Air" Roger Lee. Unfortunately, I never know Roger. I'd see him at swap meets. Roger did house Jim Wangers street racing team for a while. Duncan and Gordie Michael would work on Jim's '74 Red T/A, '77 Silver T/A and Monza there. I beleive Nick Cordova, (?) and Freddie Foreman did some of the driving along with Duncan back than.
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 |
#33
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Oh, I forgot...as I said earlier Brian Ballish had and John Politzer tried several Carbs including the Holley three barrel on the Blackbird. The car really liked the Thermo Quad 1000 cfm.
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 |
#34
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Great stuff!
Any stories about RAV's? Just a kid back then, but have many memories helping my father and older brother. They couldnt get a set from any Pontiac dealers for brother's 67 FB(428/RAIV's/SFT cam/4 spd/4.33's). While picking up fresh ported hds at machine shop(Nichols Engineering) for his 57 Super Chief(370ci/th400/4.10's), they asked dad "guess what we got?" Also had special grind Isky fs cams, push rods, rkr arms, etc. Needless to say, got a complete set up. Another thing they got from there was a holley with gears in place of linkage. Front and rear throttle shafts opened simultaneously. Spent alot of time tuning the "t b c"(that basterd carb) as they called it. Problem was eating clutches, 4 spds, u joints, axles, pinion grs, radius rod floor board mntg, etc, etc.
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If you cant drive from gas pump to gas pump across the map, its not a street car. http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/b...hop/?start=100 |
The Following User Says Thank You to Region Warrior For This Useful Post: | ||
#35
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Quote:
Sorry for the questions Dr Schiffer, It's just very interesting to me, Don
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1966 GTO 1966 421-9.3-1 comp-Race Tec 23cc Pistons 1966 Tri-Power 1967 670 Heads Pontiac "Highlift" TriPower Cam by SpeedPro DUR 214 Int 224 Exh @.050 - 107 ICL LIFT .445" Int .465" Exh Tri-Y-Headers by Tribal Tubes w/ Goerlich Mufflers 1966 Muncie Wide Ratio 4-Speed 1968-72 Chevy 12 Bolt Rear End w/ 3.73 rear gears |
#36
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I really don't know what Frankie did. I only spoke to Frankie a few times after I bought the car from Jim Wangers. I wanted some old pictures of the car. Frankie had kept all of the old engine parts, Ram Air IV heads, Valley pan, intake and carb. When Jim Got the car from Frankie's cousin. It came with an other 455 in the car with D-ports heads, the PB4 Edelbrock intake and the 1000 CFM Thermo Quad. George Delorean built this engine with NOX. Along with all of the original engine parts. Minus the engineering 455 block. The old General Kinetic cam shaft was wiped out on a few lobes. Two sets of headers, D-port and round port over the frame.
Frankie told me he had sold the car to some brothers they built an engine and won their High School nationals with the car. Frankie wanted to get involved with any showing of the car. Frankie and a few others told me the kids sold the car, to another guy called the "Cook" who raced it and did well with the car at Detroit Dragway and on the street. I met the "cook" a couple of years ago at a car show when I was with John Politzer, Jim Wangers' ex-driver and Harvey Disner, ex Royal Pontiac Salesman under Dick Jesse. I had Jim Wangers Judge with me with the personal plate "WANGERS". He told us he had owned Jim Wangers Firebird the three of us looked at him and asked which one? He said the '68 Black one. Talk to him for a while then lost track of him. I had invited to see the "bird" on display at a few events. But I never saw him again or got more pictures of the car that he said he had. Jim Wangers and I heard some where along the line some one along the line had put a four speed and a big block Chevy. We have never been able to confirm this. But there was a big hole in the trans tunnel that some one could have had a four speed in the car at some point. As for Frankie...I haven't been able to find him after he lost his two son's while they a couple of years ago. They were testing their Mustang one slippery night on Metro Parkway (16 Mile Rd). It had to be horrifing. Frankie was following them when his son lost control of the car. Killing both of his son's. I bought everything that was original to the old motor and had Jim Wangers' engine builder Duncan Michael build two engines for the car using the old heads. We up graded the intake twice. Holley Street Dominator with alot of work on it and (I don't know what's on the car now..LOL) Dunan built the first motor simular to the '74 Red T/A, low compression with NOX. I didn't like the possiblity of detenation and distruction. I never hit the button. Although with hind site the car should have been blasingly fast since the T/A was running in the high 9's with 6X heads.... The motor in it know is simlar to the original 440 high compression, no NOX and old technology. The way I like things simple.....
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 |
#37
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Ram Air V stuff...Sorry. The PMD engineering had a brown '70 GTO with a Ram Air V they used as a parts chaser. From Pontiac to the GM Tech center. But engineering never got a good running Ram Air V. onto the street.The ports where just too big for the cubic inch engines of the time.
Herb Adams, Tom Nell and Tom Goad tried to use them for Trans Am racing. on the 303 No success. That is why they sent Ram Air IV heads to several porters around the country to get the best number. Air Research in California came up with the best head work. But they took too long to do them. Permission was aksed if they could copy his port work and use some one else. They agreed. Butch Elkin at Diamond Elkin here in Detroit got the nod and did all of the Pontiac Engineering work. Including the Ram Air IV heads on Wangers '68 Firebird. The ram air IV's just worked better. There were no good running Ram Air V heads on the street.....The only exception is that Bill Foder said he made them run. Bill used Batten Performance for much of his machine work and Bob Lemon for his Carb work.
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 |
#38
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Quote:
Does the Blackbird run faster now than in those days? Im sure it does. It has the RAIV heads on it too?? I always love it when I hear one of Wangers friends or associates that are in the know say, "I cant remember what's on it now". LOL Thanks again for the insight, Don
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1966 GTO 1966 421-9.3-1 comp-Race Tec 23cc Pistons 1966 Tri-Power 1967 670 Heads Pontiac "Highlift" TriPower Cam by SpeedPro DUR 214 Int 224 Exh @.050 - 107 ICL LIFT .445" Int .465" Exh Tri-Y-Headers by Tribal Tubes w/ Goerlich Mufflers 1966 Muncie Wide Ratio 4-Speed 1968-72 Chevy 12 Bolt Rear End w/ 3.73 rear gears |
#39
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It is that thing about short term memory loss...LOL I actually slowed the car down from its peck....
I made it more the way it was for 1971 Popular Hot Rodding article it the claim was 11.68. I put all the striped out interior back in the car, including the back seat, heater, radio and wiper system. I made it legal for the street. I took the NOX out of the car too. There is no roll cage, external on/off switch, an few other item they now want for safety.... I took it Milan Drag for the Pontiac Enthusiast article in 2006 and backed off several feet from the finish line, the car felt very strong. I coasted to 11.51 at 119 MPH. How luckly was I with a 11.49 break point... The potential for 10's is there.... John Politzer, the original driver of the Blackbird in the old days, was following me as I drove the Blackbird to the Woodward Dream Cruise and to our paking area at 6:45 AM on Woodward. I did our Michigan left turn, you loop around a center island, as I got staightend out I nailed it. The car leaped and I hit second at 6,500 and the car leaped harder. Than I backed down to park at the display. John pulled in with his car came over and was smiling ear to ear. Now that brings back memories.
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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird" 1968 GTO Convertible 2002 Corvette Z06 Last edited by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer; 12-22-2010 at 07:23 PM. |
#40
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Sounds dumb, but did the FB have frame connectors back then.
Every 1st gen that hooked i've seen would crack the windshield and usually the left upper a pillar. My old 68 did with just a 455 w/RAIII top end. My brother said it would... Even my massaged 67 400 4spd did once i made better then factory traction. My brother said it would... My current 68 street/strip with 8 pt and connectors did. Suspect the damage started before the up grades.
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If you cant drive from gas pump to gas pump across the map, its not a street car. http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/b...hop/?start=100 |
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