[besserspat]

You don't have to convince me, I collect trouble (cars and motorcycles) and have various stick cars too, some with very little power and some with more...

I love driving stick , although I don't necessarily discard a mild v8 powered car thats automatic, as long as its RWD , there is fun to be had and love the simplicity /maintenance of a non lock up 3 speed automatic.

My only gripe with Stick is keeping those transmissions in one piece with big torque, keeping the shifter and rods adjusted ( Muncie and T-10 variants), and some clutch pedal mechanisms are more idiotic than others...

So for my manual cars I like to keep em under their maximum torque cap.

[dataway]

Another example of a low maintenance, low budget, moderate hp car was a friend who ordered a brand new 1977 Nova, had whatever the hot 350 4B of the era was, four speed, and high 3's in a posi-rear, PS, bench seat, oil cooler, heavy duty everything he could order. You could beat the crap out of that car and it would come back for more.

I'm seeing a trend, add the right ratio posi rear, a 300'ish hp V8, and a four speed to just about any mid-size car and you have an instant fun car. Keep the weight down to around 3200 lbs and you have a dependable little flyer.

[HWYSTR455]

Overdrive. Go straight to overdrive, it's a game changer. You can drive a 300, 400, 500, even 600+ HP anywhere with an overdrive, reliably.

If it's a Pontiac body, build a Pontiac engine. Not that I am not OK with engine swaps, it's just 'cooler' to do the 'right' engine.

If you're building a Pontiac engine and are starting from scratch, it's the same or cheaper to build a stroker, and then you can have 500+ with whatever trans you choose.

You avoid any project creep or 'spiral' by having a good plan from the start. Even a 300hp build can give you headaches if not planned properly.

The kind of car matters too, like in an F body, setup for street, street/strip, autocross, it's more fun with a manual. If you're actually competing, auto.

If it's a larger car, IMO it makes no sense to do a manual, and either, if you spend a lot of time in stop & go, skip the manual.

The rest is personal preference.

.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by besserspat

You don't have to convince me, I collect trouble (cars and motorcycles) and have various stick cars too, some with very little power and some with more...

I love driving stick , although I don't necessarily discard a mild v8 powered car thats automatic, as long as its RWD , there is fun to be had and love the simplicity /maintenance of a non lock up 3 speed automatic.

My only gripe with Stick is keeping those transmissions in one piece with big torque, keeping the shifter and rods adjusted ( Muncie and T-10 variants), and some clutch pedal mechanisms are more idiotic than others...

So for my manual cars I like to keep em under their maximum torque cap.

Big power in front of a stick doesn't scare me at all. I just don't happen to have one at the moment. I spent several years running class in UMTR and had some pretty good running stick cars years back.
I was never worried about breaking muncies behind 500-600hp. From most of my experience it happened from driver error, shift linkage problems, or old aluminum cases that had worn counter shaft holes from years of abuse. Other than that they did a pretty good job for me, and still do to this day.

These days it's nothing to push several hundred HP through a good stick transmission and live a happy life. Like Hwy eludes to, the overdrive options in the stick transmission world have very broad capabilities now. I was very close to doing a 5 speed manual swap in my 600 hp chevelle (currently 400 turbo) but ended up going the 4L80E route for other reasons.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by dataway

I'm seeing a trend, add the right ratio posi rear, a 300'ish hp V8, and a four speed to just about any mid-size car and you have an instant fun car. Keep the weight down to around 3200 lbs and you have a dependable little flyer.

This is exactly why the little fox body mustangs were so popular and still have a following to this day. My sons 89 makes about 275-300hp, 5 speed with 3.73's. It's not a power house but it only weighs 3100 lbs. Very nimble car with a short wheel base and a stick in your hand makes it extremely fun to drive. Not exactly a slouch either. It just went 13.85 at 100.1 mph at a recent track outing with 2300 DA and a very easy 2.1 60 foot time, with an engine that has 256,000 miles on it. LOL Sticky tires and it's a low 13 second ride.

It's an absolute ball to drive. You don't need a 10 second car to have fun.

https://youtu.be/ErAn8BoqSKc

[Formula8]

Lets face it, our 40-50 year old cars are throwbacks to a distant time. Pushrod V8s for the most part are throwbacks, manual transmissions for the most part are now throwbacks.

Our cars, by modern car standards, creek and rattle down the road, don't really ride that well, don't handle that well, typically can't stop worth a damn, leak oil running or not, get horrible fuel economy and stink like gas all of the time. Soon, nearly all basic electric cars will be faster and our entire hobby will seem like a throwback.

We love them just the same and keeping true to the theme, I would take a crappy 300hp stick car anyday because I can still buy a brand new fast 500hp automatic car while I will never be able to buy a new 300hp throwback 70's F-body with a stick.

[Formulajones]

I feel the same. I'll take my throwbacks any day of the week. No interest anymore in new cars.

[besserspat]

Originally Posted by Formula8

We love them just the same and keeping true to the theme, I would take a crappy 300hp stick car anyday because I can still buy a new 500hp automatic car while I will never be able to buy a new 300hp throwback 70's F-body.

I think you hit it on the nail , I will start by saying that I have the utmost respect for all the fabricators out there who push the limits of resto mods etc...We have to fabricate stuff for these guys and its good business too.

Now on a personal note, the reason why I like to own and drive or ride old iron , is exactly because of that... its old and its iron !

First we live a in world of over-consumerism and for that we have to constantly have something new , when there was really nothing wrong with the old thing...

So I like things that have a story to tell, patina and look different. I mean nowadays since everything is shipping from offshore, it has to be light and cheap... now you can forget about Iron part.

Over the years I've gathered a little collection of old cars and motorcycles, all very different from each others, (American, Japanese, German ) and from various eras ( 40s-60s-70s-80s and 90s). There was a specific reason for buying each of them, like that same model was in a movie I loved, or my very first car, kept most of my race bikes ( cuz they are worth nothing now and don't take much space)...etc.

I even get super excited when use my old 1964 British made Massey Ferguson 35X ,3 cyl. Perkins Diesel farm tractor. And that tractor is sexy!

So back to the car , its a 80 Camaro LT with '73 350 , Oem corvette alum intake and Q-jet, manifolds , 2"1/4 duals, th350 and a 2.56 peg leg rear end. Its rust free , it drives Good considering her age. Its not quick by any means , just a single tire burning (barely) time capsule.

I have a bunch of good running truck 454s sitting on my shelves that can easily be refreshed and awaken with a little cam and intake. So this was an option to leave the car Auto , with a so easy to swap BBC in a 2nd Gen F body.

I also have a couple BW 4 speed ST-10 transmissions , with a 2.64 and 2.88 1st gears. sitting on another shelf...

So I was thinking either a BBC swap ( power ) or 4 speed swap and leave the engine alone.

I already have multiple pony and muscle cars including my '73 Bird with a SD performance 461 , th400 and Nitrous that I absolutely love! a 70 Chevelle 454 Th400, I have to admit I love the torque of long stroke engines have on the street and the level of performance you can get out of them without fancy parts...

I don't want to reinvent the wheel with this Camaro , just make it a little more fun... that all that matter

[i82much]

i might consider driving a classic as a daily but there are two big reasons i don't. first and foremost, safety. i love the feeling of putting my two small kids in the back of my 2500HD crew, knowing we have stability control, antilock side impact air bags, etc. it's just not worth the risk to me to put them in the back of my GTO or something along those lines on a daily basis. once in a while on a weekend drive? sure. every day to school and back? never.

the second thing is reliability. i like to go deep into the idaho back country as often as possible. we've taken my 72 K10 back with us but only when we also had a newer vehicle along for the trip. i trust my 72 pretty well but when you are fifty miles from the nearest hard road there is something to be said for having something newer with you!

[1968GTO421]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I feel the same. I'll take my throwbacks any day of the week. No interest anymore in new cars.

Agreed. My wife and I several years ago (late 90's?) started calling all new vehicles "transportation appliances" as they no longer have personalities like the older cars, lots of plastic like our new washer, etc, etc. Like FJ we are happy with our old cars and use the new one for what it is: transportation to and fro. Enough rant.

[77 Canamman]

300HP and a stick over anything else with an auto..

[HWYSTR455]

My cars drive pretty close to new cars, they handle, brake, accelerate, are comfortable, reliable, and get reasonable fuel econo. I have proven reliability again & again.

You can't do it on pennies tho. But I can do it cheaper than any new performance car, it will be worth more at the end too. I pay less property tax, insurance, and maintenance.

Case in point, TCO (total cost of ownership) on a $24k 2021 camaro, 4cyl, is about $38k based on 5 years and 50k miles. For $38k, I can build a nice car that will beat it in every category except maybe safety, and of course fuel economy, but that not fair, since my cars have engine 3 or 4 times larger. And can double that 5 years & 50k miles.

https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/ca...1/cost-to-own/

Want to make it more fair of a comparison? 2021 Camaro SS, V8, 5 years/50k miles TCO = $46+k.

https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/ca...tyle=401835273

And believe me, those TCO estimates are conservative.

I bet I can do a '65 LeMans, 326, 4L60e, Throttle Body EFI, for that $38k for the 4cyl, and would beat it in fuel econo. And of course every other aspect except maybe safety.

Only reason I feel the safety aspect is 'maybe', or 'debatable', is that air bags, stability, traction control, backup cams, etc can be either a savior or a killer. The only area that newer cars are more safe is maybe in crash absorption.

.

[HWYSTR455]

I had baby seats in all of my cars and carted the kids around. Shoot, when I was a kid my mom held me in her lap.

.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by i82much

i might consider driving a classic as a daily but there are two big reasons i don't. first and foremost, safety. i love the feeling of putting my two small kids in the back of my 2500HD crew, knowing we have stability control, antilock side impact air bags, etc. it's just not worth the risk to me to put them in the back of my GTO or something along those lines on a daily basis. once in a while on a weekend drive? sure. every day to school and back? never.

the second thing is reliability. i like to go deep into the idaho back country as often as possible. we've taken my 72 K10 back with us but only when we also had a newer vehicle along for the trip. i trust my 72 pretty well but when you are fifty miles from the nearest hard road there is something to be said for having something newer with you!

I was never a safety nut. I grew up in these things and survived, got my license and daily drove a 56 Nomad with manual drum brakes and manual steering and a pretty hot 327 that would quickly get me in trouble. Taught me respect.

I figure if it was good enough for me it's good enough for my family. My wife actually prefers the classics, and absolutely hates air bags and the like. It was her idea to get rid of the new stuff. Now she loves her 69 camaro with a stick and drives it everywhere. It turns into the family car on the weekends when we go on trips or run errands.
My son grew up in the classics. He's now 22 and hooked on old cars. Loves his 65 bug.

As far as reliability, I trust the old stuff more than the new cars we had. There is so little to go wrong and so easy to fix when it does. His Bug is a perfect example. Geez that thing is easy to work on, I don't think there is a simpler car on the planet, and with 2 litres, a couple webbers and some other hot rod parts it squirts around pretty good too.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I had baby seats in all of my cars and carted the kids around. Shoot, when I was a kid my mom held me in her lap.

.

YUP!

[i82much]

we did a lot of things growing up that i'd never let my kids do now. like riding in the bed of a truck, riding a bike without a helmet, whatever. not worth it in my opinion. but hey, it's a free country. i just don't want to be standing next to my GTO after getting sideswiped by a drunk driver and wondering if my kid would still be alive if I'd taken the truck instead. don't want to be a buzzkill but some things are more important than the joy of driving an old car.

[Charlie Brengun]

My GF drove a 74 camaro with a line 6 and a 3 speed manual when i first met her. That car was fun to drive, previously I had a 77 camaro with a 350 and a th350.
The 74 camaro with the manual was way more fun.

I currently have a 79 camaro with a 350 and th350 sitting in the workshop. I keep hoping I can find a decent t-top body for it (what I have now is a lost cause), add a 4 speed and 3.08 posi rear end and it should be perfect for me.

[Formulajones]

We still do all of those things today

We can always sit here and second guess, hindsight is 20/20. But the what if stuff is just something I don't waste time worrying about.

I get it that there are those that worry and want to try and prevent things, and that's fine. It's all good. It's just not for us.

[72projectbird]

I daily my 71 from about April to November/December. It's got a pretty mild TH350 with a 3200rpm converter and 3:23s, and it's a blast. I can sit in beach traffic without giving my left leg a workout, cruise through downtown without bouncing between 1st and 2nd constantly, and when it's time to open it up that converter sticks it right in the powerband and the trans shifts nice an crisp/fast.

That said, I have a couple stick cars too. They're fun, and rowing gears is definitely an awesome feeling. They're super fun on country roads, rolling through the farmland and mountains.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

We still do all of those things today

We can always sit here and second guess, hindsight is 20/20. But the what if stuff is just something I don't waste time worrying about.

I get it that there are those that worry and want to try and prevent things, and that's fine. It's all good. It's just not for us.

well, as it turns out, you're not actually required to live your entire life based on the safety assessments of a random person on the internet that you've never met .. although that's probably coming soon, which is a whole different discussion ....