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#21
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Any info on you r combo drag racer too? I'm a new convert had a few learning experience s but it runs pretty well and don't plan on changing back any time soon
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1969 carousel red firebird 455, richmond 5 speed 1964 540 gto 1971 lemans sport convertible 1972 Maverick under slow construction |
#22
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http://www.ethanol.org/index.php?id=34&parentid=8
http://www.e85tech.net/Default.htm http://e85prices.com/ |
#23
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I run it through a mechanical injector - so it's fat city. The key to keeping the oil clean is getting some heat in the oil. Oil is going to delta up from the coolant, so unless you flat can't get any heat at all you shouldn't have an issue. Yes it's alcohol so it attracts water like methanol, however in use it is not as corrosive as methanol. If varying percentages in the pump blend is a concern with your fueling system you can blend all your fuel down to, for example, 70%. At 70% you'll still get the vast majority of benefit you'd get from E85 but you won't have to worry about the tuneup moving slightly.
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The secret to happiness is not getting what you want but rather, wanting what you have. |
#24
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With the percentage varying of gas to ethanol blend the ECM in a modern car adjusts the fuel air mixture to compensate for whatever you last bought. The only way you have to vary mixture with a carb is manually changing jets, not only does the ratio of gas to alcohol change so is the octane changing. A loading rack does not tell customers what octane gas they cut it with, or what percentage they use when they blend it. Cold hard facts, not meant to say your going to have trouble, just that there can be a large variance from one load, or one gas station to another. You can do whatever you want with the info and it won't hurt my feelings in the least. |
#25
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You can test it at the pump if you want... just buy a small quanity and put some in your tester. Only takes a few minutes. Testers are inexpensive or you can make your own. BTW the Feds DO have standards as to whats allowable for motor vehicle use. Currently E10(typical pump gas) and E70-85. Its currently NOT legal to sell E15 E30 E60 from the pump in vehicles intended for highway use. If you are tuned for 85% and get a load at 70% your going to run somewhat richer ... Some racers tune for 70% and dilute their fuel with gas if the percentage of alcohol is significantly higher... most just rejet if carbureted. You can buy E99 by the barrel and either make your E85 or use it to adjust E70 up to whatever level you want. Racers have reported no detonation differences if tuned for mix they run. Though typically rated around 105 octane, racers, especially guys running boosted motors, many are running same or greater boost than they could run on c15 which is race gas specifically formulated for boosted motors. E85 helps cool the charge temps making the fuel mix less prone to preignition/detonation. |
#26
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I think the percentage thing is a non factor in actuality,Not losing races because of that! LOL.Too many positive's to worry about it. A guy running alky is going to run alky,A guy running gas will save alot of money without major changes. Rich
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#27
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Down here in Fl we do not see the percentage changes like you northern folks but does fluctuate a bit 82-88% but for the most part it is +-2% and is well within tolerances. But if you run your car in the cold weather up there just get a drum or two of e85 when you check during the warmer months if you are that concerned about it - once you actually use it you will find it is no where as touchy as one might think - e85 can be stored as long as it is sealed it will keep well for up to a year if needed and some has gone out to two (I won't).
Rich you nail it right on the head with your statement "You can argue about what you think could be problems or use it like we do,and will continue to do so."
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1994 Formula 535ci NA CV-1 - single 1050 with c14 - 940hp@7000/825tq@5200 Pontiac Powered 4th Gen Project Progress |
#28
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This is but one side of the equation and to one specific use for the fuel. Sure, you can build an engine to take advantage of the inherent positive properties of ethanol (cooler running, higher resistance to detonation [octane]) and that makes it a great potential choice for the track. Running this in a passenger car does not, in my opinion, make economic or environmental sense. I have stacks of studies, reams of information about true cost to manufacture and the ancillary effects of ethanol production on food supply/prices and wetlands and dry lands and.... Regardless of which camp you find yourself in, Ethanol can not compete in the market as a regular fuel without massive subsidies. That point alone tells me nearly all I need to know.
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'68 GTO 4-spd Hardtop (11) '68 GTO Convertible AT (1) '70 LeMans Sport Land of Lakes Muscle Car Classic Facebook Event Facebook Wall (Kurt Smith,Minneapolis) |
#29
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1969 Firebird, Tx3-455/468 machined by CVMS E-heads by Dave Wilcox/Comp Cams 300B-6 flat solid 850DP on E-85 by Eric Niefert/T2 1" plastic spacer T-400/PTC 4000/390's/30x9 Hoosier radial slicks,#3400 1.38 60' 6.32 @ 108 MPH at Northeast Dragway NC 5/23/15 (9th pass on new engine) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ePCu2v...ature=youtu.be 1.37 60' 6.26 @ 109 half track, 9.86 @ 136 1/4 mile, #3350 11/26/16 at Richmond Dragway (125th pass on new engine) |
#30
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John Wallace - johnta1 Pontiac Power RULES !!! www.wallaceracing.com Winner of Top Class at Pontiac Nationals, 2004 Cordova Winner of Quick 16 At Ames 2004 Pontiac Tripower Nats KRE's MR-1 - 1st 5 second Pontiac block ever! "Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts." "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." – Socrates |
#31
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If so I got something you want to buy! Is it the perfect fuel? No, but neither is gasoline. |
#32
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And I do agree ethanol is not the "end all beat all" but is a step in the right direction...atleast for some of us racers and performance enthusiasts.
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1994 Formula 535ci NA CV-1 - single 1050 with c14 - 940hp@7000/825tq@5200 Pontiac Powered 4th Gen Project Progress |
#33
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Hey Everybody,
This is very good information and interesting discussion. My question about moisture in cold temps is related to my experience and the possible issues that I have with my block. Once I got to work with the small quirks of e85 - the starting, fuel supply and fuel testing - tuning issues, I love it and the car runs the best ever. Its available here and it works for me. I would run pump gas if I didn't have to change pistons. I'm just glad that people have a variety of options that are best for them. Thanks Again, Craig |
#34
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Here's the danger with this topic (and with people like David Blume) - it is sprinkled with enough facts/data to apparently (loosely) support a proposition, which is then expanded broadly to imply that this is a viable, sustainable solution for mass markets. It is not. He uses illogical syllogism to great effect. Celluloic Ethanol being the "great savior"... Ha! Clean production? Ha. Acid Hydrolysis is used in more than 80% of such ventures. Everything is a conspiracy supported by "The American Petroleum Institute" and he attempts to refute their claims by stating that "several authors" have written books that counter their claims, while David himself laughs and degrades anyone who makes claims that David's position is untenable. He cites no proof of his claims, he merely makes them. If he had been right, there would have been an economic explosion decades ago for this. He's not right. I have trouble when this man wants to profer claims based on energy contained in a unit of Ethanol, then talk about thermal efficiency and how when used in a gasoline engine it only loses 10-12% mileage. HA HA HA. Sorry. it has 30% less energy (British Thermal Units or BTUs) per unit of fuel; therefore, we require 30% more energy to move the same load the same distance as with gasoline. You can't beat the laws of physics. Here's a directly related question for performance applications: How much larger do racers need to make their jets and fuel systems in order to run e-85 in their cars vs gasoline? Does the number 30% ring a bell to anyone?? I apologize for being a tad bit flippant in my responses above. I struggle with psuedo science and claims on a subject by "authorities" who ignore scientific fact and market realities and provide no real world proof for their claims. I fully support this guy wanting to make his own biofuels. I fully support him wanting to teach others to do so! Go for it....ON YOUR OWN. I do not support him if he must "coerce/force" me into paying for his pursuit. Quote:
My issues with alcohols in the standard fuel supply are many, and this is where we disagree. Having the choice is fine - I'm all for it. However, the choice for me (living in MN) to NOT have the alcohol in the fuel does not exist. Via tax breaks, direct credits and other mfg subsidies, the true cost of this alternative fuel is suppressed. Regardless of source material, it is not economial to produce, contains less energy per unit than gasoline, requires different storage and distribution technologies, can't be manufactured in sufficient quanties to ease any demand for gasoline, etc. The proponents of gasahol (regardless of blend %) want the cheaper fuel prices that only come with subsidy. Without that, the customers stop purchasing the fuels and refineries shut down. There is no question about performance enhancing properties when used correctly (engines configured to take advantage of resistance to detonation, fuel supplies increased/tuned, etc). No argument there. I believe people who wish to use such fuels should pay the full cost (best actual representative cost) for the fuel without mandating that I participate in this as a tax payer. Remember, never underestimate a person's ability to rationalize for their own cause. I support your new found interest in running alcohol in your car(s) and wish you success in reaching your goals. I just don't want to be forced to participate at the pump.
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'68 GTO 4-spd Hardtop (11) '68 GTO Convertible AT (1) '70 LeMans Sport Land of Lakes Muscle Car Classic Facebook Event Facebook Wall (Kurt Smith,Minneapolis) |
#35
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Oil companies do not have to fear ethanol or alternative fuels. They are not evil. They have no collective conscience that decided to "hold down the man" to get his money and crush anyone who does not follow their lead. Sorry, it does not work that way. I'm not telling you that you should not run ethanol if you like! Go ahead and enjoy the improved performance. I wish you much success and enjoyment in this pursuit (no sarcasm implied at all). Ethanol is a known quantity. it's production is known and has been known for eons. The reason it has not taken off is because there are other, more viable alternatives that pose far fewer challenges. Mainly, that is gasoline.
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'68 GTO 4-spd Hardtop (11) '68 GTO Convertible AT (1) '70 LeMans Sport Land of Lakes Muscle Car Classic Facebook Event Facebook Wall (Kurt Smith,Minneapolis) |
#36
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Got to side with 68gtoMN on this one. Could have had an alternative fuel discussion without the Berkeleycrat Videos. The carbon credit markets have crashed. Man made global warming is a hokes designed to levy more tax and re-distribute wealth on a global scale. The federal government makes twice what the oil companies makes per gallon by tax, and does not lift a finger to bring it to the pump. In fact creates obstacles.
I'm out of here.
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Bull Nose Formula-461, 6x-4, Q-jet, HEI, TH400, 8.5 3.08, superslowjunk |
#37
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I think we are going down the wrong path with the politics side of things here, my intent was to show some facts about e85 as a race/performance fuel - not to say the world will end if we don't switch to it in our passenger cars or replace all petroleum based fuels with ethanol. As I said in the beginning - I am not a tree hugger. I am sure that the oil industry has their own share of false propaganda too. Neither is saying the whole truth I am sure and the truth does lie somewhere in-between. But as you might have noticed this topic was placed in the race section.
BTW - there was a 50 cent a gallon tax credit for e85 but was lifted almost two years ago.....not saying there aren’t other though..
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1994 Formula 535ci NA CV-1 - single 1050 with c14 - 940hp@7000/825tq@5200 Pontiac Powered 4th Gen Project Progress |
#38
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I don't know that I learned anything from this video about "myths" that were supposedly busted. I mainly heard propaganda for ethanol and against oil from a man who is an author/activist and entrepreneur (don't lose sight of that point) and not a scientist. I recognize that you don't support the "tree hugger claims", as you stated, etc. This guy, sadly, does not make a compelling case scientifically for what he claims. Dissecting his first video of 27 minutes, he talks about Saab's failed variable combustion chamber tech, a supposed new 400 HP alcohol only sports car, the diesel engine, American Petroleum Institute conspiracies and hardly delves into what his point is. He's a distraction artist. And Saabs variable engine failed, the sports car never materialized, Saab is gone... History does not support him or his arguments and he has no "credentials" to support them either. You were looking for support and urging others to view these videos. I did. I am not impressed nor persuaded of anything other than gasoline is far better everyday fuel compared to alcohol. Alcohol mixed with gasoline can provide benefits at the race track. No politics injected by me.
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'68 GTO 4-spd Hardtop (11) '68 GTO Convertible AT (1) '70 LeMans Sport Land of Lakes Muscle Car Classic Facebook Event Facebook Wall (Kurt Smith,Minneapolis) |
#39
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im with 68gtoMN all the way.. I'm all for any fuel that racers want to use as race fuel is a drop in the bucket. being in the midwest I see first hand how ethanol fuel helps farmers. As long as you're a corn farmer!! It hurts all other farmers as they have to buy corn at elevated prices as silage. putting our food in our gas tanks drives up the the price of our food. do you like the price of beef milk and eggs these days? corn prices are up because we're burning it in our tanks. I can't get gas here without corn in it here!. It takes a gallon of oil to produce a gallon of ethenol. we're not 'creating' fuel or burning less oil by using corn to fuel our vehicles.
back on subject, I'll put e85 in my race car if it makes sense for my race car, but your race car it a very different subject than what the masses burn.
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'78 Macho T/A DKM#95, 460cid, SRP pistons, KRE 310 D ports, 3" pypes, Hooker 1 3/4" headers, hydraulic roller, 10" Continental, 3.42 gears 11.5 @117.5mph 3900lbs ([_|_] ##\|/##[_|_]) |
#40
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We wouldn't be having this discussion if ethanol production was not highly subsidized by the government. If it really did offer a net positive for our environment, worked better than gasoline as a fuel, cost less to produce than gasoline, there would be no need to subsidize production--People would be clamoring for ethanol.
Instead, most of us with old cars are careful to find stations that have "NO ETHANOL" signs on their drive or pumps. There have been an increasing number of articles written dispelling the myths about how great ethanol is for our environment. The only reason it's still being used in our fuel supply is that the federal government has not changed its position on forcing ethanol use. Once the government admits ethanol subsidies have been a mistake, it will quietly disappear as a motor fuel. This will be accomplished when there is a major change in the makeup of our government---hopefully beginning in 2014.
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BONESTOCK GOATS '64 GTO Tripower Hardtop (Wife's Car) '64 GTO Tripower Post Coupe (My Car) '99 Bonneville SE Sedan |
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