[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by ta man

Does your rotor point at either 1 or 6 when it's on the timing tab now?

I have a relative that's really good at building cars..has built many from the ground up. He also sets his timing by feel. He does good most of the time but every now and then I need to help him.
My sons car had a weak starter so my father inlaw thought it it had too much timing and backed it off so it would start easier.Saw my son a day later he said his car was running like crap. Once I found out what happened ..stuck the timing gun on it and found only 4 degrees inital..where normally it was at 18..huge difference.

Your father in law didn't drive it then. It has to start good and drive good. And you also have to take your time and try it many times moving it in small amounts.
Timing it by ear is what helps me know that it was timed better when the dots were not lined up. It's really obvious in this case.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

I'm on compression stroke and the rotor is pointing at 1. It will start and sputter, almost idle. That's the best I can get it. I tried it in the range and that's the best.
Before I moved the dots it idled good. Which tells me I went in the wrong direction by lining up the dots.

Have you tried to set the carb / idle up some and see how it runs?

Stan

[ta man]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

I'm on compression stroke and the rotor is pointing at 1. It will start and sputter, almost idle. That's the best I can get it. I tried it in the range and that's the best.
Before I moved the dots it idled good. Which tells me I went in the wrong direction by lining up the dots.

Not to sound like a broken record..but when its at 10 to 12 degrees on the tab the rotor is at one?

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Have you tried to set the carb / idle up some and see how it runs?

Stan

No. It runs too crappy for that.

As soon as I was sure that moving the chain made it worse there was no reason to further tune it. It's really obvious it runs much worse.
Who ever mis-aligned the dots knew what they were doing it seems. I just would like to know for sure what they were up to with that. Makes it hard to troubleshoot the other problem with this dot thing going on. Impossible.
So if I install a better new cam and lifters, timing chain set, what's to say this part that is unknown doesn't come back to haunt me?
I don't really know what caused the original problem or why the dots were off. Same thing or two different things? Just a really bad POS cam?

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

Same thing

Same.
That tiny cam installed at 85 intake centerline would likely cause RPM to limit big time. If you degreed the current setup you would discover the cure.
A better cam and timing set degreed would be even better. Then get a timing light and measure advance.

[Stan Weiss]

While the cam is far from optimum. And while this is a total different combination. A '65 389, 2 barrel carb, lower CR, smaller valve head, which had about that same or less cam, and would turn more than 3200 RPM under power.

Stan

[steve25]

If you while cranking the motor and advancing the distributor can not get the motor to become hard to Crank then you Dizzy is still off.

Once the motor gets hard to Crank back up the Dizzy by rotation by 1/4" to 3/8" and you should then be well in the ball park of where things should be.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by steve25

If you while cranking the motor and advancing the distributor can not get the motor to become hard to Crank then you Dizzy is still off.

Once the motor gets hard to Crank back up the Dizzy by rotation by 1/4" to 3/8" and you should then be well in the ball park of where things should be.

Yup. Very basic. Had that nailed in the 70's believe it or not. So when I do it now I know when things are not acting right.

[kyle_blake]

Hey, real good job on trying to get this solved, i'm impressed with how fast you take things apart and put it back together!

I can see your logic how messing with the timing chain symbol system made things worst and why you don't want to return there for another round of exploratory cam timing adjustments.

However think of it this way, you don't have a manual for that timing chain set which can tell you what is happening and how to work it. You don't have a degree wheel to tell you that one's "timing chain set" is installed and checks out to the design parameters that it's manual says it can do.

You've really rocked it doing so much on the engine. I can tell you that degree wheel setup from summit, the piston stop, some solid lifters and checking the degree wheel is a real cool job to learn how to do.

I got a lot of satisfaction knowing that i installed my cam within 1 degree of the cam card. When you a buy a cam they want it installed typically 6 degrees advanced so as the chain stretches it goes back down to 0 degrees advanced. That's the general theory.

Piston stop usage = correct crank shaft placement
correct crank shaft placement = verification that timing cover 0 degree TIMING MARK matches the timing line on BALANCER.

If you have a look at my pictures you will see my engine came with a timing set like yours.. and then i bought a new one which had more precise options, like 2* increments in both directions, a little more options and came with a good instruction manual. I like those things. manuals , lol.

You are soo close , you bought a car, it's the last stage to go, hey... why don't i just make sure all components are lined up correctly, engine is camshaft timed correctly by degeeing it and you'll have that skill set available which most people don't.

Hopefully i said everything correctly above, it's been awhile myself since i did my camshaft change and degree but what i learned above was from forum members way back.

[TAQuest]

Probably just going forward with the cam swap now.

One last thing I thought of. I want to show some pictures of the receipts for the build parts. Maybe there's a clue in there. Really just making sure what I'm building.

Take a look at the receipts and maybe something will jump out at you.

Thanks again for the help.

[TAQuest]

https://share.icloud.com/photos/06yf...r_Township,_MI

[TAQuest]

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0YlM...r_Township,_MI

[TAQuest]

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0pTz...r_Township,_MI

[grivera]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

Probably just going forward with the cam swap now.

One last thing I thought of. I want to show some pictures of the receipts for the build parts. Maybe there's a clue in there. Really just making sure what I'm building.

Take a look at the receipts and maybe something will jump out at you.

Thanks again for the help.

I don't recognize the timing chain part #

The Edelbrock carb isn't helping

If you get a new cam, which I think is a good idea, make sure you also get a new timing chain with instructions

Buy a degree kit and degree-in properly. I've found the crank-nut turning sockets designed to hold degree wheel work great. http://www.gaugesandgadgets.com/pro-...SABEgIyBvD_BwE

[TAQuest]

That's a standard 400 kit correct? That crank; CRK PON383LH has the stock stroke?

[TAQuest]

I know Butler makes a 383 stroker crank for a 350 Pontiac.

[TAQuest]

And the 350 and 400 Pontiac cranks are really close to the same.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

And the 350 and 400 Pontiac cranks are really close to the same.

326, 350, 389 and 400 are the same. All have the same 3.75" stroke and have the same size rod and main bearings.

Cubic Inch change came from bore size.

Clay

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

326, 350, 389 and 400 are the same. All have the same 3.75" stroke and have the same size rod and main bearings.

Cubic Inch change came from bore size.

Clay

Wondering why a new crank for a 400 would not say '400' in the number and have '383'. CRK PON383LH I can't cross reference that crank part number.

[TAQuest]

If you look at Summit for new Pontiac cranks, their part numbers have either '400' or '455' in their part number.