[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

While we wait to see if Keith has any info on Dick's 1965 Mr. Unswitchable and some changes to it.

Good morning, all (no internet at the new house yet).

Was there something in particular you wanted to ask about? Those articles are pretty comprehensive, with lots of nice detail pics (enough information there that if a person wanted to do a "tribute" car they could do it easily enough).

My undertanding is that this car was likely one of the 5 white early builds. They must have still been owned by either Pontiac Engineering, or by the dealership, as Dick got in trouble for cutting it up (altering the wheelbase).

Dad made the fuel injection manifold on that car, by starting with an Olds unit and adapting it to fit.

K

[SD421]

Originally Posted by SD421

This must be the cover shot Milt talks about in his book, where he backed the Bird up while the tide went out. He's laying down inside the front seat. Wonder why they lost oil pressure during the testing.

Don

Looked back thru Milt's book and he says the check ball in the oil pump got stuck.
I should probably look next time I ask a question. lol
Don

[brut4s]

Dr. Schiffer, Mr. Seymore and others that were there I really appreciate you all for taking the time to tell your stories about what happened during this time Things those of us that weren't in Michigan would'nt know.Was any testing or any mule cars running around in California or other states? Or was everything done in Michigan.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by brut4s

Dr. Schiffer, Mr. Seymore and others that were there I really appreciate you all for taking the time to tell your stories about what happened during this time Things those of us that weren't in Michigan would'nt know.Was any testing or any mule cars running around in California or other states? Or was everything done in Michigan.

Boy, you are really trying to open a can of worms! LOL Did you ever hear of a guy by the name of Mickey Thompson? Ever wonder why he had all of those Pontiac "Experimental" parts on his cars? Did you ever think about where Mickey had had his Pontiac Hemi Heads cast? He didn't own a foundry.

Than why did Mickey Thompson switch to Ford in the early '70's? Mickey was good friends with Semon "Bunkie" Knudsen. Knudsen left GM to become President of Ford Motor Co. Just like Bunkie got Smokey and Nicklas involved with Pontiac he supplied Mickey with a lot of Hi PO stuff out the back door of GM. Do you really beleive that Mickey out lined his four engine stream liner on his floor and got lucky with the cars stablility and cutting through the air on the salt flats?

Food for thought...wouldn't you say.

When I get home I'll post a close up of the ROYAL 1962 Tempsest cpe. When I do look closely at the names on the front fender and who is driving it.

[brut4s]

LOL!! Yes i've heard of Mickey Thompson, but not a lot of what he did with Pontiac. I've heard about the Pontiac Hemi heads,manifolds but that's about it. I know he was involved with all types of racing. I didn't know how much he was involved with Pontiac.

[65WJ]

this is the best book I have read in a long time.
thanks guys, keep the stories coming.

patrick

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Boy, you are really trying to open a can of worms! LOL Did you ever hear of a guy by the name of Mickey Thompson? Ever wonder why he had all of those Pontiac "Experimental" parts on his cars? Did you ever think about where Mickey had had his Pontiac Hemi Heads cast? He didn't own a foundry.

Than why did Mickey Thompson switch to Ford in the early '70's? Mickey was good friends with Semon "Bunkie" Knudsen. Knudsen left GM to become President of Ford Motor Co. Just like Bunkie got Smokey and Nicklas involved with Pontiac he supplied Mickey with a lot of Hi PO stuff out the back door of GM. Do you really beleive that Mickey out lined his four engine stream liner on his floor and got lucky with the cars stablility and cutting through the air on the salt flats?

Food for thought...wouldn't you say.

When I get home I'll post a close up of the ROYAL 1962 Tempsest cpe. When I do look closely at the names on the front fender and who is driving it.

Here are a couple of pictures of Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac 1962 Tempest driven by some guy from out West. His name in on the front fender where it say's "PREPARED BY"

If you can't read the fender read the text just above the car.

If you can't read that..LOL It says: PREPARED BY Mickey Thompson and Ace Wilson.

Mickey Thompson also drove the car at the Nationals and is here beating the TASCA Ford entry in A/FX.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

did you know bill knafel personally?

While I was only introduced to Mr. Knafel I do have the 1966 Drag Strip Tin Indian promo kit that was sent to all the top drag strips around the country.

I'm only going to attach a part of the contract and narrowed the page so some things are cut off. That is because I'm sure there is going to be some 'Judge" guy that likes selling bogus "Ace Wilson" stuff on ebay, in Hemmings and other places. Who will try to duplicate this stuff to without authorization. Isn't that right, Robert!

Don,
Notice that the TIn Indian team was also a 1966 National Champion with those heavy Hurst wheels.
Hurst was a sponsor of the Tin Indian Team too.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

I'm not going to attach the entire packet. But here are a few more pictures.

Arlen sure has gained a few pounds over the years. Look back at the picture I took of Arlen by Jim Wanges' Judge when I had it at the Detroit Autorama in the late 1990's

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by brut4s

Dr. Schiffer, Mr. Seymore and others that were there I really appreciate you all for taking the time to tell your stories about what happened during this time Things those of us that weren't in Michigan would'nt know.Was any testing or any mule cars running around in California or other states? Or was everything done in Michigan.

Really Keith can best answer this because he works in GM engineering right know. But GM has a had a test track in AZ for years. I posted a 1974 Trans Am for Gregg a past GM engineer a few pages back. If you read about his car he tells you that he did some hot weather testing in AZ.

The 1969 Trans Am and Judge had their press release in California. Many magazines tested these cars on the east and west coast. Marty Shorr editor of "Cars" magazine would take the Royal cars not only to the strip, but go to the local drive-ins and even go street racing with them. Then he'd write about it.

I can't remember where the cold weather testing was or is. I just don't remeber. Several years ago one of my pateints, Grant Kitchen, who was a PMD engine engineer, used to do the cold weather testing every year.

For years guys who worked for Jim Wangers' company, Automotive Marketing Consultants, Inc (AMCI) would drive early production cars from Detroit to San Diego. For proper evaluation AMCI set a standard of 3,000 miles on the cars before any testing was done. In late June 1997 my wife, I and another couple took two brand new early production, not yet relesed cars out to California for Jim company to test and evaluate. A 1998 Monte Carlo with vin number 4 and a Lumina with vin number 7. We also watched AMCI do some testing of a new Mercedes with Monroe shocks on it at Carlsbad race way. Most of the evaluation and certification was to varify things that may be said or go into print in advertizing the cars. Then the mfg had testing and evaluation certificates from AMCI to back up their claims about the car.

Look closely at that very small print in a TV ad. It just might say, "As certified by AMCI".

At lunch today I passed a group of cars with black tap all over them going the opposite direction from me. I could not tell what mfg they where even by the shape. Of course all of these small cars look alike to me..LOL

Every other Thursday I take I -96 past the GM Proving Grounds as I go to an assisted living facility. On occasion I'll be paralleling some car or truck with a new name on it and I have no idea what this new model is. I will also on occasion pass Ken Lingenfelter going in the opposite direction driving one of of his many one off's.

I do have picture of some of Ken's cars. Including his different variations of Firebirds made off the current Camaro. Let me know if you want to see those too

So. Yes there are mules criss crossing globe all of the time.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

I'm not going to attach the entire packet. But here are a few more pictures.

Arlen sure has gained a few pounds over the years. Look back at the picture I took of Arlen by Jim Wanges' Judge when I had it at the Detroit Autorama in the late 1990's

So this the the GTO that was recovered by Merle Green?? I see two 66' GTO drag cars on your previous post.

Thanks again Doc!!

Don

[brut4s]

Thank you Dr. Schiffer! I don't mind seeing those pictures, not sure if anyone else does or not.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Here are a couple of pictures of Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac 1962 Tempest driven by some guy from out West. His name in on the front fender where it say's "PREPARED BY"

If you can't read the fender read the text just above the car.

If you can't read that..LOL It says: PREPARED BY Mickey Thompson and Ace Wilson.

Mickey Thompson also drove the car at the Nationals and is here beating the TASCA Ford entry in A/FX.

So Mickey was fielding the Royal Tempest and the Yorktown Blue 1962 Tempest at the same time?

Don

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here is Tony Knieper's '67 Firebird and the annoucement by Stan Long Pontiac of his death in June 1968.

The '68 Firebird aka Jim Wangers"Black bird" was orginally ordered by Tony of his brother Mike. Both having been killed in the towing accident the family wanted out of racing. John Ploitzer was friends with the Knieper's and made arrangments for Jim Wangers to purchase the '68 Firebird "Black Bird"

Here is a link to Tony Knieper.
http://www.colesy-juniorstockforum.c....php?f=6&t=188

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by SD421

So Mickey was fielding the Royal Tempest and the Yorktown Blue 1962 Tempest at the same time?

Don

Don,
When ever I've asked Jim Wangers about the '62 Tempest all he would tell me is that Royal sponsored the car and different engineers would drive it.

That's all I can tell you.

[goatman65]

How old were all these guys back then? they look very young.
These stories are great,especially with the pics,some which i have never seen.
I like reading the street racing stories the most.And its always better when they are told by the guys that were 'there',the ones involving 'The Cheater' are interesting.
You usually only hear or read about Wangers or Shornack,its nice to hear from the 'lesser known' guys that were behind the scenes.

It would be really great if someone could sit down with some of these guys for some bench-racing and record it for video.

[brut4s]

How old were all these guys back then? they look very young.
These stories are great,especially with the pics,some which i have never seen.
I like reading the street racing stories the most.And its always better when they are told by the guys that were 'there',the ones involving 'The Cheater' are interesting.
You usually only hear or read about Wangers or Shornack,its nice to hear from the 'lesser known' guys that were behind the scenes.

It would be really great if someone could sit down with some of these guys for some bench-racing and record it for video.

X2 or a book! Lucky we still have some around to ask these questions. Also lucky we have this forum because the chances are we would never meet them in person.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Yes, I agree a comprehensive book or video documentry with interviews of as many of the guys who where there should have been done. You would get a better idea of what went on through many eyes.

Funny, as I'm typing this John "Cheater" Politzer called. He said for the right amount of money he'll give the "real" story. Don't ask! He has his reason's for not telling many people what he used to do and I respect him for it.

I have given this link to several of the guys. Some have been to other forums that attack them or just waste their time. Most of the guys are not computer literate and don't want to attempt learning. Others just hate typing.

Some just feel that they don't want to argue a point ie; he said, she said position and then asked to prove it. I understand that too. We have all been to those forums.

To these guys what went on back then was just a job. A way to get a pay check and feed their families. Those that are still a live have no idea that people have an interest in what they did as a living. To guys like me street racing and hanging out with car guys was a time to escape the studying and worring about the draft.

Win Brown is always willing to discuss what they did back then. Win has trouble writing, probably do to arthritis in his hands and has on and off health problems. When he is feelling well he meets with a bunch of the old "High End" club guys on Thusrday night. I participate once in a great while. But that group too is dwindling. Last time I went with Fast Fredie Foreman, Jim Wangers driver of the Monza. There were just four of us that night. I had found out that several had past away. Some were too sick to come out or were nursing sick wives.

The "High End" club that began in the 1950's is what should have been written about in a Detroit Street racing book. It happened every Thursday night. It was fantastic!

Back to Royal guys:
Chuck Broomfield while he could get out about five Royal Bobcat kits installed in a day. He had a bottle of Maalox at his station in the service area back then. I understand he is still around.

Sid Warren lives in Florida. Dave Warren is a sales mgr at Moran Chevrolet. John Politzer is also a car salesman/broker.

Brian Ballish is back to playing with cars and I have forward him this link a few weeks ago. He seemed excited about the link since he was THE GUY behind building the Black bird.

Frank Redicker Jr. has pictures and film from track events of Royal. But no matter how many times he talks about it. Or how many times people have asked him. He has done nothing. No one has seen anything from him. To bad too.

Enough.

[rad400]

I wish I could here some of the good 'ol stories from these guys.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

I can't remember where the cold weather testing was or is. I just don't remeber. Several years ago one of my pateints, Grant Kitchen, who was a PMD engine engineer, used to do the cold weather testing every year.

Kapuskasing, Cahnada, eh.



I try to avoid going there as much as I can.

I was at the DPG for four years. Two of my daughters were born while we were out there. Best time of my life.