[Steve C.]

"What I think happens with this sort of thing is that once you find the right cam, and get the combo "dialed-in", changing camshafts and nothing else just doesn't bring a lot to the table in terms of increases in ET."

I think most can agree to that. Especially if your into bracket racing it really doesn't matter since the obvious, for the most part the consistency run-to-run is more important. Not ET. If your running a consistent mid 12-second car and you now desire a mid 11-second car now you probably have to make some significant changes, as eluded probably more than a camshaft. But many are not into racing and simply want a better track performance or dyno sheet simply for a goal or bragging rights, nothing wrong there. Mentioned previously, Lee Atkinson picked up 2-tenths and 4 mph with a cam change... from a 231 degree hyd flat tappet to a 247 degree solid flat tappet.

Fun conversation.


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[Cliff R]

Steve, here are some real World results with this sort of thing:

I picked up a SOLID .2 and 2MPH with a fuel system upgrade. Picked up nearly that much installing 3" head pipes with a 3" "H" pipe to replace 2.5" non mandrel bent crap!

I also picked up another .2 with a converter change, then .2-.3 more changing cylinder heads.

So when you add all that up you take a car that's running mid 12's @ 109MPH to 11.64-11.80 at 114MPH!.......and.......using the SAME camshaft for all runs.........FWIW.......Cliff

[TCSGTO]

I think both Steve & Cliff are saying the same thing in a different way. It’s interesting Lee Atkinson had gains making the exact same swap I did. I’d bet he had 3.73 or steeper gearing and a fairly light car. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have run close to the solids’ performance with milder gearing and lower shift points with the hydro cam?

I did have the engine dynoed after a rebuild and some head work with the 247 solid and horsepower peaked at 5600. I doubt a RAIV cam would have peaked that high but would probably come close in average hp&torque numbers.

Either way it’s safe to say it’s been proven over and over that in a 455 a hydraulic with no less than around 230@.050 intake duration or a solid with mid 240’s @ .050 has proven to be a pretty safe choice that can cover a variety of street apps. Yet some will still try to reinvent the wheel.

[Skip Fix]

Heck I picked up .7 with a fresh tranny and new convertor!

[Steve C.]

Lee Atkinson's car......

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....uild45500.html


I probably should of stated going from a mid 12-second car to a mid 10-second car




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[meangene]

If Warren Johnson listen too all you ultimate warrior guys he won't of have won so many championships / did you really keep doing more new cam testing (regrind cams} or did you just fall back to the dark-age 041. Now we know why we have LS engine instead of a Pontiac at GM. I'm really not trying to be a a-- but not coming out from the dark-age does no good and it doesn't move you forward / for example how old or how many years ago are the Comp XE cam been out ? This is why Pontiac have fallen behind. This is just for you to really think out of the box, not be lock in the boxes for 50 years

[Steve C.]

Look hard


https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ntid=12667&d=0


Serious political strife between the Pontiac specialists breeds even more strong opinions and loyalties. To some the 041 cam is like a magic wand !


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[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by meangene

This is just for you to really think out of the box, not be lock in the boxes for 50 years

Warren "The Professor", I liked his style.
Once met a local guy who claimed to have an old car of his, I think it was an Olds 442. He said it ran 10s, he drove away before we could test that.

Steve has a special place in his heart for the 041. LOL

The Voodoo cams have become more popular here.

[Steve C.]

We set a National ET & MPH record in the 'dark ages' with the 230 degree COMP 280H cam.... the record only stood for a short time though. Damn, if I had only used the 041 instead

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[meangene]

Pastry Chef I got to talk to Warren Johnson once, was impress with him. Seen him run at Norwalk during the Tri power nationals, stood next to the concrete wall there and watch him run up close, the 1st 25 feet I thought "what the heck" and then like a shot gun gone. 6.88@211.00 never ever forget that. and yes i do believe the voodoo series are the newest flat tappet out there, other companies need to step up.Just like my old dog he needs to be put in place sometime.

HAVE A GREAT DAY

[TCSGTO]

Originally Posted by tom s

Guys,he is looking for a good street driving cam for a 461 CI engine.From my experiance a 108 is a crappy street manner cam.Also the CI of the engine eats up duration.If me it would be a 232-240 ish at 50 on a 112.Also stick shift cars tend to buck more and required to pull back a lower gear at lower street RPMs.This type of engine has been gone over tons of time and 230-240 ish cams on a wide lobe always get the nod.NOT for peak HP or racing but good street manners.Also too small of cams tend to be more detonation prone.FWIW,Tom

Warren Johnson now, really? You’d need a dump truck to hold all the names that have been dropped in this thread as it careened off the rails when Tom had it sorted 2 years and 300 posts ago. He’s lived with multi carbed, stick shifted street cars with mild gears longer than some on here have been alive. Look at the op’s combo and goals again. As someone else said in one of these train wreck threads, paralysis by analysis.

[TCSGTO]

By the way the Voodoo cams are nice and the right one would work well for the op, even though most are well over 10 years old now and Warren Johnson has probably never used one in his car.

[64speed]

A voodoo custom roller is what Paul is spec’ing for my 467. When I get the cam card I will be glad to share the love. He knows I am going for a max effort STREET build

[Steve C.]

Due note the original poster himself resurrected this old thread this month. Someone may take away useful information from what some may perceive as pointless conversation.


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[pmd400]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Due note the original poster himself resurrected this old thread this month. Someone may take away useful information from what some may perceive as pointless conversation.


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Originally Posted by Steve C.

Due note the original poster himself resurrected this old thread this month. Someone may take away useful information from what some may perceive as pointless conversation.


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I resurrected the thread in post 227 to give an update on the straub cam and to give my findings on the bullet cam. If you go through the last 100 posts very few replies even relate to this. The thread goes off on 4/7 swaps and rhoads roller lifters that haven’t ever been manufactured. So for another update for anyone interested in the straub/bullet swap my initial findings are that a lazy, longer lobe on a wide LSA with rhoads lifters is a better choice then an aggressive, shorter lobe on a tight LSA. Also, from my experience, most home engine builders who want a decent street 455 with iron heads shouldn’t go over 9.5:1 compression, particularly if you live where summers get to 100*F

[Steve C.]

"If you go through the last 100 posts very few replies even relate to this."

Nothing unusual. People just have to get used to it and deal with it. Been going on for years.


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[Cliff R]

By page 3 I pretty much covered what the OP needed to know about his cam choice. I knew it wouldn't work but try to be kind about these things. He certainly got some decent pats on the back about how great the Straub cam was going to work here, but just like I've mentioned scores of times in these threads/conversations:

"the WORST cam you will ever put in your 455 pump gas street engine build will be relatively small and on a tight LSA".

They should make a sticky out of that statement so folks don't waste their hard earned money and valuable going that direction just to get their rear end handed to them and have to go back into the engine with a better choice.....FWIW

I'd add here that trolls and naysayers very quickly jump all over that deal and start arguing LSA, without dissecting and understanding what's really being said there. I've use cams in 455 on 108LSA and done very well with them. Case in point a few years back (I love real World examples) we had prepared a really nice 455 short block headed for a 1981 Firebird owned by Ray Klemm Jr. He was all fired up to get his new CNC ported KRE heads and custom ground roller cam here in time to complete the build and get the engine installed and run-in for the Tri Power Nat's in Norwalk coming up in a couple of weeks.

As things usually go the heads and cam weren't going to make it in time. We very quickly changed direction pulled a nice set of 1969 #46 heads from a 428 out from under the workbench and prepared them for his new engine. I pulled out my old/antiquated valve grinding equipment (Van Dorn with B & D/Sioux mixed in) and cut the valves and seats. No porting of any kind, not even a gasket match was done, but we did upgrade them to screw in studs. We kept the small intake valves on 45 degree seats and stock 1.66 exhaust valves as well. We installed better springs (Crower 68404's) to accommodate some additional lift and PC seals.

Went to the shelves in the back room and had several cams to choose from left over from other "projects". It came down to a Comp 292H and Crower 60213, we ended up going with the Crower:

Part Number: 60213
Pontiac Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft

Pontiac - 287, 301, 316, 341, 350, 370, 389, 400, 421 & 455
Performance level 4 - Hi-Draulic Hauler - Brutal mid to top end torque and horsepower.
INT/EXH - Dur @ .050” Lift: 248°/256° RR: 1.5/1.5 Gross Lift: .518”/.537” LSA: 108° RPM: 3500 to 6500 Redline: 6500

We also very quickly prepared a Q-jet and HEI for the engine, nothing exotic, just a later 1970's Olds 850cfm and factory stock HEI with a positive stop welded in for the advance.

Right off the trailer to car ran high 11's in the heat of August and continued to run 11.80-11.90's all weekend. Idle quality was very "rough", and it "chopped" well past 1500rpm's and never really did smooth out till at least 2000 rpm's. Evaluating power "by the seat of your pants" would have the car going much faster than high 11's, it was nothing short of BRUTAL in the mid-range just as Crower describes on their website. From apprx 3500-5500rpms it would have you planted so hard in the seat all the blood would run out of your face! To date I've never observed a 455 that hit that hard in the mid-range and the "felt" power was so impressive I can see how someone would very quickly see this as an improvement over an engine with a much broader/smooth power curve.

Track numbers were far better than expected especially from the "stock" #46 heads, and to this day I never bad mouth Pontiac's small valve offerings.

Just wanted to put that example out there as we've dabbled with tighter LSA a few times, and have had PLENTY of vehicles brought here for us to tune with tight LSA cams in them. So I get to see the entire spectrum when it comes to this topic. I certainly don't know everything about it, but at this point in my learning curve know that small cams on tight LSA will never go into any 455 engine that we prepare here..........FWIW......Cliff

[61-63]

What was the compression on that engine Cliff? That cam is almost the same as the Lunati roller I had them grind on a 108lsa.

[Cliff R]

Really couldn't tell you exactly because cc'ing the heads wasn't part of the equation. Pressed for time with only a couple days to complete the engine build, get it installed, run-in, and headed to Norwalk didn't allow for it.

The short block was very well done, exactly zero decked, Icon pistons, Eagle full floating "H" beam rods, final hones with a torque plate, balanced, etc.

Most of the #46 heads I've seen are closer to 78cc not down around 68-72 like the larger valve versions, so probably a solid 11 to 1 compression if I had to guess?......Cliff

[Steve C.]

Not sure if this is the specific combination Cliff is talking about regarding Ray Klemm's first combo. But here is a link with his feature....

12:0 compression
110-octane

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-...9-pontiac-gto/


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