[ponyakr]

I found a couple of more pics of the "Limelighter" nat rec holder '67 GTO Stocker, @ the Spring Nats.

It was running E/S then.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

oh, I'm not interested in getting anything aftermarket or anything blatantly aftermarket for my car - rather I just wouldn't want to pay big bucks for an NOS cam, or to get one custom made if I don't have to.
One of the reason's why I like PSMCD is that it strives to have cars that are stone stock - but it also recognises that sometimes replacement wear items are tough to impossible to get - which is why there is some leaway.
If I find a good 067 cam for my '70 WT engine, I'll run it, but if I can't, I'm guessing a 068 (with the new rule) would be permissible.

Unlike you, I wasn't fortunate enough to see and hear these cars when new;
On some level, I want to see how these cars were when new;
I don't expect to be the fastest car around - if I was all about horsepower, late model Challenger SRT's make a whole lot more power than my Firebird.

If you can not find an 068 cam you might want to look at the Summit 2801. It has a little less 0.050 duration on the intake than an 068 and just about the same 0.050 duration on the exhaust as a 068. There are a number of people here on PY who have run this cam who could tell you what their idle vacuum is. You can also run it with standard lifters.

Stan

[ponyakr]

If that's the cam you want, the best price I can find right now is from Auto Zone.

IF they can actually get one, they look to be $122 plus tax.

But if I'm reading it correctly, at the top of the page it says 15% off all orders over $100, thru Dec 18.

https://www.autozone.com/lp/autozone...WINTERTIME-NDD

So, I'm not positive of the final exact price. But, if they actually have one, & these prices are correct, it is BY FAR the best price I can find.

https://www.autozone.com/internal-en...c-7/107135_0_0

Summit shows to have 8 in stock, but they ain't cheap.

[SD455DJ]

Don, Jonny, & Stan - We found that there was no quick way to check a cam's legality without taking extreme measures, time, and effort for a race where there is nothing at stake, except maybe bragging rights. Having fun and learning about your musclecar are the most important 'rules' of the race. We've had cars that didn't run really fast that had bigger "illegal" cams by the rules and cars that downright flew that had smaller than advertised factory spec cams, so we began to realize, as did the racers eventually learn, that the factory got it right in the first place which translated very well for our type of race with street tires. Now we do check compression ratio (1.5 max over advertised), displacement, convertors, and tire rubber (no 'treated' street tires or tread depth into the wear bars) on any new car that runs much quicker that we feel they should, such as a '74 Laguna low compression LS4 454 running low 13's at 105 mph, red flags go up, and we're going to look that car over. If we find 'issues' he is allowed to race still, but has to make corrections to the car if he brings it back next year because we will check it again.

Jonny, I built a '70 XV code 330 hp 400 4-bbl (small valve 10.0 compression) for my Tempest that made 380 hp/450 lbft torque through exhaust logs (2" outlets!) with a Summit 2801 cam. It has a very mild idle and made 20" at 1200 rpm, so running an 068 cam is not an issue. The et difference between the 067 and 068 cams in a good engine may be .2 seconds at the most. We are not going to get excited about that at the race...except if you were running low 12's , then well give your car the 'once-over'. If you had at least 10.0 static compression, I bet the 2802 cam would manage 18" vacuum at 1200 rpm.

Yes, you can run any cam that can meet the vacuum rule and race. As Mark Weymouth said in the quote Stan had in a previous reply, we found in dyno-ing several RAIV engines of identical parameters, with exception of the cam, that the factory 041 cam (and faithful clones) made the most power on the dyno and at the track. The factory engineers (Mac McKeller) knew what they were doing.

Dennis

[ponyakr]

Dennis, have ya'll done any testing to see how much extra vac the Rhoads(or other brands) variable duration lifters will make, as compared to regular lifters, on the same spec cam ?

Another way to ask it is: Have ya'll tested Rhoads lifters to see if they would allow the use of a bigger cam, & still make your 18" vac min ?

I suppose that one reason I'm so interested in this is because I used Rhoads in all my 041 cam 455 slow bracket engines, so that they would idle smooth & make instant torque from an idle, so we could run stock 13" converters. Never checked vac. But it worked great for good RT's.

https://www.rhoadslifters.com/Pages/OriginalFT.html

Just remembered that one of the cars had vac brakes. They worked just fine. Don't know the min vac needed to operate the vac brakes.

To all following this discussion: I realize that not everybody that has, does, or will run this series wants to build a really quick car. But SOME guys like the challenge & the competition of makin their car go quicker, under a strict set of rules. That's why lots of guys run Stock or SS, instead of brackets, even tho there are big money bracket races all over the country and the cars are usually easier/cheaper to build.

For me, the challenge of trying to run quicker than the big inch Mopars would be the competition part of it. We know those engines are capable of making more power than a 400 Pontiac, since they run higher Stock classes & quicker ET's, in NHRA Stock Elim competition. BUT, all the cars have to put the available power to the pavement. And, I suppose a '68 Bird is lighter than many of the Mopar combos. So, I reckin lighter weight & the small hard tires are the equalizers, against the higher power cars.

[unruhjonny]

@ponyakr;

Please forgive my ignorance, but I thought I read in the last year that you were going through some hard times, and were selling all your stuff with the regrettable intent of putting all this bracket racing stuff behind you.

What did I miss?

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

@ponyakr;

Please forgive my ignorance, but I thought I read in the last year that you were going through some hard times, and were selling all your stuff with the regrettable intent of putting all this bracket racing stuff behind you.

What did I miss?

Hey, I sold my last bracket Bird. Don't have a drag car of any kind. The only Pontiac I own is an '85 wagon, which I've had for sale , for quite a while.

I'm retired & drawing my SS check. Don't have money to race, until I win the big Powerball jackpot.

On these Pontiac forums, I'm just TALKING about racing. I am NOT planing to race, or planning to build a race car of any kind.

BUT, just because I can't race, that don't mean I don't love racin & talkin about racin.

Don't know how to say it any plainer than that.

[unruhjonny]

makes total sense to me.

While my car undergoes the s-l-o-w process of getting rid of cancer (read: rust) I do my fair share of bench racing.

[SD455DJ]

We actually don't allow Rhoads lifters at the Pure Stock Drags. That just tells us there is a bigger can that can't meet the vacuum rule and we want a hydraulic cammed engine to be quiet under the hood and not clack like a solid lifter Chevy or early street hemi. If any first time racer shows up with Rhoads lifters, they are given the first year 'bye', but it needs to be gone/changed if they are coming back the next year. Seems like Cliff Ruggles has posted lots of info on vacuum differences and at what rpm with Rhoads equipped engines he's built. We don't have any experience with them to report unfortunately.

Dennis

[ponyakr]

" We actually don't allow Rhoads lifters at the Pure Stock Drags..."

WOW !

I suppose "shocked" is my reaction to that !

So, that brings up all sorts of questions.

(1) What other brands of "variable duration" lifters are banned ?

Hylift Johnson describes their "R" lifters as "variable duration", in their catalog.

So, are these illegal also ?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=797308

(2) What about those innovative racers who take regular lifters & modify the insides to make them bleed down more ? Do ya'll take the lifters apart & verify whether they are as shipped from the maker, or whether they have been modified ?

I understand that this may getting very picky. But, as we all know, racers have(and always will) push the rules, in order to increase engine power.

So EXACTLY how much lifter bleed-down is acceptable ?

Is there any easy way to check it ?

Lets just take a hypothetical situation. Say I go with the common, cheap lifters, which have the easily indentifiable lower groove. But after I buy 'em, I then modify the insides, in order to make 'em bleed down more @ low rpm.

Do ya'll have any way to check for that ? Would you even bother ? Would you only check if the car ran really quick ?

Hey, once again, I'll never build a car for this series. I'm just trying to help get as much correct info as possible posted about these rules.

It's now already been established that the Rhoads lifters I mentioned are NOT legal. I had no idea. Is that actually written in the published rules ?

[SD455DJ]

We don't allow any variable duration lifter (too noisy for a hydraulic cammed car) since it is a red flag/dead giveaway for softening/hiding a bigger camshaft, but mainly, we want the cars to look and sound stock, on top of having all the correct casting numbers. We know racers are racers, and very competitive looking for any advantage they can find, and, if they figured out how to make a quiet variable duration lifter, good for them, they won't be scrutinized. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few creative and inventive guys/gals who machined a lifter innards to bleed down a little faster without making noise, more power to them, as long as they are quiet, we won't know the difference. As long as thy can make the 18" vacuum at 1200 rpm, and do it quietly with a hydraulic cam, they are legal.

Dennis

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

" We actually don't allow Rhoads lifters at the Pure Stock Drags..."

WOW !

I suppose "shocked" is my reaction to that !

I understand your logic - you were a bracket racer.
You needed to figure out how to get a leg up in the hopes that you'ld get gas money for next weeks meet.
(Which is all pretty cool in my books!)
BUT!!
This isn't stock eliminator (because that's where this thread started).

PSMCD isn't about making money;
PSMCD isn't about getting a trophy;
PSMCD isn't about getting points;
PSMCD is about replicating a stone stock, or (at best) a super tuned car as it might have left a dealership.

No trick parts;
No trick machining or port work (of any kind);
No trick suspension...
Just as it was built, and/or how it might have left the dealership as a brand new car with it's new car warranty.

It's a real world version of "which car is faster ...if?"
Not to be confused with "I wonder how fast I can make this car go!"

The easing of the camshaft rule, as I see it is like any other rule easement before it;
It is about getting cars out - cars as original as possible, without getting nutty.

Just look up some people trying to find original spec camshafts (Pontiac guys have it good from what I read)...

No need to chase down date coded, or correct code/year blocks - just the correct manufacturers block that is the correct disclpacement for model/year, with the correct for model/year top end;
a top end by the way which hasn't had any contact with a grinding wheel.
That top end also needs a correct for model year/engine type and cfm rating carburetor, with a correct air cleaner;
On the other end of that engine, it needs to have correct exhasut manifolds for model/year with no trickery, all breathing through a stock type exhaust;
Wheel codes don't matter as long as they are the correct size for model/year;
and since any dealer had the ability to instal a myriad of gear sets, you're not limited to the factory installed gearing - as long as it's in a correct for model/year rear end.

All these rules even allow you to build a car unlike it's vin;
So you can run a 1970 Tempest, which left the factory with an inline six and a two speed as a 1970 RAIV GTO - as long as you get all the key stuff on the car right, and it looks the part - After all a 1970 Tempest, and 1970 GTO started exactly the same way before a vin was assigned to it (and quarters were hung)!

[Mcronk]

Not sure if this was mentioned in regards to Ray Hunt Pontiac race cars. On the back of one of his catalogs is this claimed 73 Formula SD. Oddly it appears the car does not have the TA shaker scoop.

[unruhjonny]

IIRC the NHRA rules meant a Formula 350 could be run as a Formula 455;
Since NHRA events basically have weight minimums;
an aircleaner - what's that!?
and few vehicles have much of an interior, so who really cares what hood it has(!?).
Come to think of it, I believe NHRA allows any factory classified drivetrain by the car, for the model year - And I have read of cars being run at NHRA events where the model/year of the car didn't match the model/year of the vehicle.

As I have understood it, this is an example of how an NHRA style event differs from this type of "pure stock" racing;
In order to run at PSMCD, your car would have to look the part - so a 1973 Formula 455 (as in SD455) would have to have the correct shaker hood... as well as a full interior.

My earlier example of a '70 Formula RAIV is a completely legal NHRA vehicle, but since zero were built, they are illegal at PSMCD.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Mcronk

Not sure if this was mentioned in regards to Ray Hunt Pontiac race cars. On the back of one of his catalogs is this claimed 73 Formula SD. Oddly it appears the car does not have the TA shaker scoop.

Thanks for the pic ! Had never seen it.

Yeah, I've read that all the '73 SD455 Formulas had the T/A hood & shaker. But, IF that is the case, then I suppose NHRA doesn't care which hood they run.

Same with the '70 RAIV Birds. I've read where some guys claim the '70 Formy never came with the RAIV engine. I don't know. But, NHRA allowed Scott Burton to run the RAIV engine in a '70 Formy, for several years.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

Went over this GTO aprox 2 months ago. The car is very solid. The original bench seat interior looks new, as it should for a super low mile ex-racecar that has been garaged in the southern plains since the early 80's.

The engine is a mixture of original & GM parts replaced in the mid '70's while being raced. The block is a '72 455 d-port app, not sure on overbore. 7F6's: one appears original (dated I241), one is late date (April '72). The '72 casting HO intake I could not ck the date on the bottom. RA air cleaner, pan & boots are original. Q-jet is HO SR piece dated '74 (believe its a 7041270, need to find my notes). 2133 was pulled decades ago when GTO was raced. Original manual strg pulleys & front alt mtg bracket are still mounted.

Original M22 was pulled by Truman & was replaced with a 2.52 1st gear high nickle gear Super T-10 for NHRA G/S. Most GM stick class NHRA stock class owners went this route, M22's wouldn't hold up. The owner after Truman installed a built T-400 with a small diam torque convertor, that is in car today. The rear is the original XV K (355 posi) housing with Summer Brothers axles & aftermarket gears (either 4.10's or 4.56's, not sure). The rearend & original 455 frame are very clean just like the underneath of the car. For having been sold new in the rust belt, this GTO lived a sheltered life & after racing was never relegated to local driver-thrasher performance car state racking up up the miles & destroying the body from the frame up with rust.

Going to be an interesting car for someone, new owner could go several different directions with it. As raced would prob be the most affordable & interesting route.

Maybe this is the G/S in question?

Stan

[sdbob]

In talking with John Herslow and a letter I sent to Div 1 tech director NHRA did not know which hood for 73 SD Formula came from factory. So the formula hood was ok initially. No one saw an original car and again to see a TA hood on a Formula would seem wrong. But we know now.

[Mcronk]

I understand cars can be built for class racing and a lot never left the factory with the drivetrain they are raced with. I just found it odd he claimed it to be a 73 SD 455. Car originally could have been a 350, 400, or possibly 455 D port as well. He could have installed the 455 SD in the car.
Maybe we can tell by the class designation?

My interest in class racing goes back to 1980 when I watched Qjet powered engines run in the 10s. I think it would be cool to restore some of those old racers.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by sdbob

In talking with John Herslow and a letter I sent to Div 1 tech director NHRA did not know which hood for 73 SD Formula came from factory. So the formula hood was ok initially. No one saw an original car and again to see a TA hood on a Formula would seem wrong. But we know now.

That sounds reasonable.

But I'll add this.

John Clegg ran his new SD455 Formy @ Indy, in '73. Got the D/S class win. Therefore, the NHRA tech guys had a perfect opportunity to see exactly which hood the Formy came with. I would assume that the guy who teched John in would have asked him about the shaker hood, if he didn't already know about it.

So, I don't really see how NHRA could not have known which hood the SD Formy came with. And, if they had a question, all they had to do was call somebody at PMD headquarters & ask about it. Can't think of any reason why PMD would hide that info from NHRA.

"...Maybe we can tell by the class designation?"

It looks to have run D/SA, IIRC, the Herslow & Morlock T/A ran E/SA. I think the Formy is lighter. So, D/SA sounds correct. But, weight breaks & NHRA hp factors changed often, thru the years.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2080

"...I think it would be cool to restore some of those old racers..."

Some of the more famous ones have been restored. The 1st 2 that come to mind are the Truman Fields '68 Birds. Several of the Early '60's big Pontiacs have also either been restored, or cloned. Some of these old cars appear at big Pontiac shows every year.

Pic #5 shows the car from pic #4, with a tribute paint job of the car in pics 2 & 3. Most here know the story. But, for those who don't, Truman Fields won Stock @ Indy in '73. Then in around '75 or '76 he sold that Bird to Roy & Mike Mckinney. They supposedly didn't have enuff money to pay for it, so they traded a motorcycle plus another '68 Bird as partial payment. Truman then built that Bird & raced it, getting the C/S class win @ Indy in '77. Then a few years back Todd Hoven made a deal with Truman to make a tribute car to his 1st Bird & race it, which Todd did. Todd later changed the car over to a plain green, without the lettering. He & his brother raced it for a while. Now I suppose it's just sitting up somewhere.

[unruhjonny]

While speaking of a vehicles correctness in respect to NHRA racers, it is worth noting that the white "SD455" Formula in that picture has an earlier (read: lighter) bumper, and the plastic lower valance.

Also the RAIV wasn't an official option, but it was supposed to be avialable on 1970 Formula's and Trans Am's;
In the end, for what ever reason, only 88 Trans Am's were built with the RAIV, and no Formulas were built with it.
I have read many times of people trying to order them, and it almost reads like the initial intended version of the RAIV to be used in the '70 Firebird was cancelled, then after some time the GTO engine was used.