[bmpmdf]

Who says you have to have a head gasket? That is being limited. There is in another form of engines, a way to do it with .150" space between bores. Off set boring is being left out of this so far too.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

I appreciate all the comments from Steve and from "the old one".

Fact is that they are both correct.

The theme for this post should be "Walk Before You Run"

Pontiac was 20 years ahead of its time in the RA-V head technology in some areas, but not in others. If we add some additional features, then we can get them up to probably 1995 technology.

In order for BBC's and others to get bigger was to do the big bore space blocks. We need to catch up with the regular bore space blocks before we can jump off the deep end. You don’t Start where you want to End UP!

Here is how I see the steps, some might be missing but this is just a general idea:

1.) Implement Pontiac RA-V program for existing blocks. There are creative valve designs for solving bore problems if you want to spend enough money. How about twisting the valves? It pushes the intake guide toward the intake and the exhaust toward the exhaust allowing bigger valve spacing geometry. How about tilting the exhaust valve? (The Ford guys have already done this and achieved great things. I will post a picture of this design later)

2.) Yes, we spent a whole day on reviewing the Cadillac block and the Buick block technology. "The Old One" has to admit that he is thinking fairly traditional with regard to blocks. Yes, we do believe that a 4.5 bore is possible. Has anyone tried offset bores like the NHRA guys do all the time? It gives you more spacing for the same size envelope. The outside gets bored to the outside, if the sleeves are thick enough, no problem, this will provide more for the middle.
How about offsetting the center bores towards the exhaust, and the outer bores to the intakes? This gives you more. Please don’t assume that we don’t know what problems this causes because we do.

Yes of course it will involve Siamese sleeves like the Buick. Yes we have already incorporated the option of installing two extra head bolts into the head, and the new block. Rudimentary my dear Watson! LOL! These bolts will be located just above the bore and just below it. It will not require large bolts to solve the problem; a smaller bolt would be leaps and bounds greater than nothing. This has already been implemented with other engines; so much has already been learned that needs not much R&D.

3.) Wider blocks are way down the priority list. Most sanctioning bodies don’t allow them anyway. So just as Steve says, we pick the most areas where we can be competitive and go forward. IHRA 800 cubic inch ProStock engines probably isn’t a good place for us to start.


"The Old One" has added greatly to the discussion and is very wise. However, if you take Steve's axioms, we start where we can start, and the go from there.

Pontiac engines have advantages that others do not. This will hopefully overcome the disadvantages.

Do we have enough customers to do all this?

Who knows? but, we are going foreword anyway! Nothing is cast in stone, but we have lots of possibilities if people support the program. Right now I am waiting on a RA-V head to mock up with, then we can proceed.

Thanks again for the discussion.

Lynn

[GTOGEORGE]

If it can't be done with the stock Pontiac bore spacing.....it doesn't need to be done. Change the bore spacing and it's not a Pontiac any more!!

[pro-tour79]

new to the site but I've been lurking for some time, Lynn you did make note of offset boring but I feel that casting a new block w/offset bores a la VW,Audi "W" v8 blocks may be a way to get where we need to be, and yes the comb. chambers would vave to be moved but not that big a task, by the way I did work on tunnel port ford heads used in ARCA back in the mid 90's Tom V. may know of this project, the truth is these motors made as good power as any other and a flater torque curve that the chevies could not match, Bobby Bowsher won 2 ARCA championships back then

[Stroker 455]

I realize this is off the subject but someone mentioned that Pontiac was more interested in making better street engines.If the Ram Air V could have been added to production T/A's and GTO's it would have been competitive to 454 BBC and Dodge/Plymouths 426 Hemi on the street.Wouldnt that have help Pontiac R&D make better products for the track?

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by the old one:

The reason Pontiac was disqualified from NHRA with the RA V, is the engine was never released officially in a Pontiac car, which was required to make it legal- NOT because Chevy and Mopar objected to an "unfair advantage". There was no unfair advantage running a Pontiac- there actually was a disadvantage- look at the NHRA Super Stock records- 426 Hemis today run 8.80's in SS/AA- they are, were, and will be the quickest American production SS cars ever made. By comparison, a full-on stock configuration Pontiac RA V engine will run around 9.50- 9.70's with factory intake, etc. That's what Nunzi's RA V 446" engine in the '63 Tempest runs, with 2-4's. No competition for a Hemi or BBC or Ford 429/460. A Hemi and a BBC will kick a Pontiac's butt regardless of what head is on the Pontiac, inch for cubic inch- due to larger bore spacing and smaller main/rod journals on the Mopar and Chevy. They are simply more modern engines, designed a full 10 years after the Pontiac was- with many improvements. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


With respect "TOO" We have run this engine. You are accurate in your example above, but not precise.

1.) NHRA didnt allow this engine because they were gerrymandering the rules to favor the Chevrolets. My guess is that someone was tugging on the purse strings at the time, probably Chevrolet motor division. The 427 Camaros were hand built in the corner of the manufacturing facilities. Who built the Hemi Darts for Super Stock? They were hand built by a dealer. And Shelbys, Yenkos, are nothing but a scab shop for the OEMs. Do you think L-88 cars with alum blocks were mass produced? They made 2 from the Corvette plant, and I saw a copy of the original manifest from the Corvette plant, but that is legal, too!! Alum block and all. So why are Pontiac with a dealer installed RA-V any different than that crap? Politics!

Now NHRA has just approved the single 4barrell Hemi Cuda for Stock eliminator, and also the L-88 Corvettes? We are resubmitting the RA-V firebird!

2.) Your are totally wrong about RA-V and the Hemi motors. The best original OEM Hemi head will only flow about 330cfm max. Since it is a Hemi, a heavy domed piston is required for compression. The only reason a Hemi runs fast today is that they have gotten a new cylinder head that is much better than old. The new ones recently ported by Bill Foder flowed 440 cfm which is much better than the OEM HEmi head. Also the new replacment Mopar blocks are much better than the orginal blocks. Those old Hemis are way worse than the new hemis. The new castings are worth at least 100HP. Not one Hemi would be running today below 9 seconds if they had to run the OEM castings produced by Mopar. To make us run all the OEM stuff and qualify against them is a Joke of the most dastardly proportions. This is why we are submitting replacement cylinder heads so we can have and advantage too. Right now we are just holding our own.

Contrast that to a RA-V? The old original castings flow well over 400 cfm in ported form. Far greater than any OEM Hemi head or BBC head. With a 428 combo, Foder constantly beat the Fords, Hemis, and the Max Wedges at the old Detroit Dragway with no problem. If you use the equation that most competitive cylinder head guys use for a very high compression engine with multiple carb, it is HP = .310 X 8 X cfm or almost 1000HP. Any one want to put the money up?

Foder’s heads flowed 380 cfm without ever being on the flow bench, just ported. Those BBC’s, Hemis, and Fords, couldnt touch that. We also know that Cast Iron holds the heat of combustion much better than the alum counterparts if you are limited by the rules on compression ratio.

We are talking about an engine in the mid 70's all OEM that produce 860HP. Forget about it. Nothing came close.

We currently are pushing with today's technology with old parts in Super Stock. Our forecast with our new designed ports that our 9.2 to one compression (super stock legal) 455SD will make close to 700HP with OEM heads, crank, block, steel rods and a Q-jet.

3.) The RA-V ET capabilities are a bit off. With old ported heads, we pushed a 3450 lb car to a 9.41 @ 147mph. This is the same motor that Bill Foder ran 9.17 with in the 67 Zeppelin. Not 9.50's or 9.70’s.

Don Kennedy recorded at Pomona a 9.79 at 136.69mph in a 3300 Super Stock car with that same 455SD motor that I run.

Phil Monteith's Hatari car posted a 9.79 at almost 136mph last weekend with a D-port head and a 3250 lb car in Super Stock trim.

I believe that a factory original 428 dual 4 with today’s technology would run under 9 seconds in these Super Stock cars.

That is a feat that would never happen with another manufacturer with one exception. Ray Paquet’s 427 HighRiser Thunderbolt with runs mostly 9 teen's.


Like I said, you are accurate, but not precise. I believe your numbers are off based on what actual racers have run, and what they could run with today’s technology at hand.

Of course that is just my opinion, for what it is worth. If we can get a 455SD to run 9.50's at 3300 lbs, then what would a RA-V with 12 to one compression and dual carbs run? I think a bit faster...... I am hoping to get to some good air this year to lay down a good number for that mostly all OEM 455SD car weighing in around 3270lbs.

Lynn

[JKGTO]

Lynn,
Hope you can sway NHRA to give us a shot at some new stuff. A lot of crazy stuff going on there. Allowing NASCAR type Hemis on the dragstrip is one of them. Aluminum front end cars too. Chrysler is definately pushing to sell more parts. Too bad we dont have the factory helping us. I am hoping to buy at least a set of the new heads. Anything new will be worth the wait. Jim

[the old one]

check it out- this is proof positive that wider bore spacing, canted valves, smaller 2.75" main journals, and improved (hemi) chamber is key to making big horsepower

super stock record holders as of today

http://www.nhra.com/stats/ss_record.html

The Hemi SS/A stick cars are now running 8.70's

The Hemi SS/AA automatic trans cars are now running 8.50's

that's 8.50's, with stock volume cc heads, and stock carburetors, and weighing over 3000 pounds.

It takes a tube chassis weighing 2100 pounds to get a Pontiac to go 8.50's

[bmpmdf]

Lynn, I hope you are successful with the application to NHRA. If they turn you down, but approve the others, it will be proof of their politics again. I wonder how the IHRA would be?

[Stroker 455]

If GM would have left Pontiac alone to build what they wanted to build.The world of racing would be a different place.Pontiac would have owned the streets as well. The Ram Air V program would have sent alot of cars back to the shops and had Ford,Chrysler/Plymouth and Chevy drivers shaking their heads.
Pontiac in the early 60's was the car to beat on the ovals and the strip.Just think where they would be right now.

[mikeb]

I think you are right Stroker 455. Unfortunately pontiac wasn't the fair haired GM child as was chevrolet. Pontiac was clearly an innovator and a leader in the GM corral but for some reason they seemed to be lacking political power in the GM management circle in the later years. The 301 is an example of how low pontiac was made to stoop before being kicked to the curb engine wise.

I often wonder what pontiac could have done had they been granted sufficient resources and political leeway to make what they wanted. It looks to me that pontiac was cut off at the knees somewhere around the mid 70's and then was left to die.

It just makes it more satisfying to beat up on a BBC with classic pontiac power at the strip though

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Our goal for our new 2005 Grand Am in Super Stock is to be the first Super Stock GT car in the 8's. It will be with a Pontiac. (GT car is new car with old motor 8lbs per rated HP)

I hope we can get the car done before the record falls to a chevy.

This is with a 428 d-port motor with a Qjet.

So I think 8.50's is very dooable with a Super Stocker with a maxed out RA-V with dual carbs. In fact, probably rather easy.

Foder said those Hemis in the old days were no problem. He ate them for lunch.

Our old modified motor completely detuned ran a 8.72 with a powerglide. So doing a build up, I dont think 8.50 was at all out of the question. 2800lbs full frame car.

Lynn

[bmpmdf]

Lynn, when do you think it will be ready? Would love to see the new car at the track.

[Stroker 455]

Mike all one has to do is look at the 455 SD,a pure race engine built for the street.The #s they were getting with a low commpression 455 with freeway gears was nothing short of amazing.

How everything works out for you at the track Lynn.

[WDCreech]

Lynn, I would like very much to have a pair of your RA V heads. I have a set of Wenzler High Ports, by KRE, on my stock block 474, a set of Super Chiefs on my 619 IA, but I have another, untouched, IA block that I have yet to build. I have been thinking on the lines of a 541. With that having been said, I would like you to keep me abreast of the progress of your heads. If you would, you cane-mail me at &lt;wdcreech@webtv.net&gt;

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

We hope to have the car painted in the next 4 or 5 weeks. We are doing the graphics now as we speak.

I copied it below. The Indian is lame, as we want an older meaner Indian breathing out the flames with a full chief head-dress, not a single feather. We also want Candy-Apple read flames, not orange and yellow.

Lynn

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

T.O.O.,

Here is how the CJ Ford guys overcame the smaller bore sizes. It wont solve major bore issues, but it might get us from 4.40 up to an equivalent of 4.6 or so. Then we kill them with more midrange power.

Pontiacs beat chevies with midrange, not peak. It is what we call a HP Plateau. Our 6X motor made 570 to 575HP from 6100RPM all the way to 7000 RPM. So you dont have to have the same peak power, but the average is killer.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

A two dimensional picture is really tough to see a three dimensional concept, but this one might help.

You gain valve spacing on the intake valve by tilting the exhaust. The exhaust moves towards the center of the bore with the further depression.

If we leave enough casting material at the top of the head for the rocker, this can be done with both the intake and the exhaust. Preferably with only the exhaust.

We cast them inline and straight for normal applications, and tilt them for extreme.

This is only one way to skin the cat, there are several other ways. Pontiac guys have traditionally had to use forward thinking technology to over come obstacles to win on race day. (putting the pushrod through the middle of the intake port was one of them)

Lynn

[bmpmdf]

The tilting in is a double benefit. It also helps direct the flow to the middle of the chamber. At 7000 rpm, that gets real important. I would say that if possible, if the NHRA will allow that, you should do it. Especially if they allow the others too, which they have. And I am not talking about just Ford, but the reason chevy always gets a pass.

[johnta1]

It's not a Ch*vy though.
Who knows.