[roadrage david]

here are the Tri-Y headers under Roger boliers car!! clearly they dont come below the transmission!!..

[Formula8]

I have the 2.5 collector but my collectors are about flush with the subframe. Maybe a bit below but that is primarily due to me needing to put a few degree rearward slant on the motor to fit my TKO600. Not all hanging down like the photo in #225.

[gearbanger]

Well something just happened that a thought I'd never see. My tri-y headers just arrived from Ron Watt! There are pictures attached above so I wont attach any, but I just wanted to post so everyone would know that he has delivered again.

At this point, I just want to say that I apologize for calling Ron a crook and publicly accusing him of stealing money. I personally have never seen anything like this before and I honestly thought I had been taken and at a certain point, I did not want anyone else to buy headers from him without knowing what they were getting into. Over six years have passed since paying for these headers and Ron made good on what he said he'd do. I know it must make him feel really good when he delivers one of these old orders, like another weight off his shoulders. I can't honestly say that I could dig my way out if I got myself into a hole like Ron has. That is probably why I was so convinced I would never get the headers. I have a lot of respect for Ron because of this latest push to make things right. A new buyer should still be aware of what has gone on before buying, but at this point, I am convinced that Ron will not intentionally rip anyone off.

Peace.

[KEN CROCIE]

I have no problem with 16gauge. H-Os try-y were made from 16 Gauge and they last forever.The reason is --they NEVER hit the ground. The bumps and scrapes associated with conventional headers are the cause of thier early demise. I have customers with 20 YEARS on thier HR-98s. The HR-64s have been on my GTO since 92.

[aronhk_md]

Back from camping/hiking/canoeing in the adirondacks....what a great time with my brother. Gearbanger, I'm ecstatic for you! I dont know why but it makes me feel very good to see 1 guy and then another get their headers. And I'm not really involved! Guess I like to see the underdog pull through, and I've had this feeling since I first talked to ron that he meant well.

Ken....nothing wrong with 16g at all. Guess I was just very impressed by how solid the 14g felt in my hands. Guys.....when Ron runs out of 14g and the price changes it will be at least $100 more for the 14g as an upgrade if you want it. Didnt realize before how much more it costs.

At the rate my build is going by the time I am likely to get a new set from Ron I may be able to get them in stainless!

[SD421]

Originally Posted by gearbanger

Well something just happened that a thought I'd never see. My tri-y headers just arrived from Ron Watt! There are pictures attached above so I wont attach any, but I just wanted to post so everyone would know that he has delivered again.

At this point, I just want to say that I apologize for calling Ron a crook and publicly accusing him of stealing money. I personally have never seen anything like this before and I honestly thought I had been taken and at a certain point, I did not want anyone else to buy headers from him without knowing what they were getting into. Over six years have passed since paying for these headers and Ron made good on what he said he'd do. I know it must make him feel really good when he delivers one of these old orders, like another weight off his shoulders. I can't honestly say that I could dig my way out if I got myself into a hole like Ron has. That is probably why I was so convinced I would never get the headers. I have a lot of respect for Ron because of this latest push to make things right. A new buyer should still be aware of what has gone on before buying, but at this point, I am convinced that Ron will not intentionally rip anyone off.

Peace.

Gearbanger,
Id like to see some pics once you get them installed.

Don

[ERIC AULL]

Didn't mean to Hijack....will start a new thread Eric

[roadrage david]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

Ken....nothing wrong with 16g at all. Guess I was just very impressed by how solid the 14g felt in my hands. Guys.....when Ron runs out of 14g and the price changes it will be at least $100 more for the 14g as an upgrade if you want it. Didnt realize before how much !

What is the diferense between 16g and 14g Aronhk!!.

[aronhk_md]

David......I am referring to tube wall thickness. The lower the gauge # the thicker the metal is. Therefore 14G is thicker than 16G. Most manufacturers use 16g or 18g. The headers Ron has been making have been 14g though, which is harder to find and quite a bit more expensive apparently.

Like everything else there are Pro's and Con's to using 14g.

Pro's
less likely to warp
last longer - heat can eat through tubing as rust....just saw an exhaust system that looked like new from the outside but where it was HOT at the bends near the headers the metal was paper thin.
tougher to dent if you smacked it with a rock, or a curb.....as unlikely as that may be in this case.

Con's
heavier
slightly reduced inner diameter - due to thicker wall of the tubing. Its a very small amount, but its there.
initial cost is much higher
harder on the tooling

[roadrage david]

yes i need them as thin as posible!!. the Indian adventure headers i have for the 68 bird are very thing and coated so no problem. hope Ron makes me thin light headers.

[aronhk_md]

I'm sure it wont be a problem to do them in 16g.

[mbwicz1]

Today I received my headers. I posted a couple of weeks ago that they were done, and they are now in my grubby hands. Initial thoughts:

1. They look well built and are substantial. The flanges are 3/8" and they weigh 30 lbs (these are the 14 gage version discussed recently). General quality looks good.
2. They seem pretty compact, but I have not held or used another set of pontiac headers.
3. The welds look OK (not show quality, but strong enough to last a long, long time). There was some cleaning up done to the welds to make sure the headers had no spatter.
4. The ports are welded inside and hand finished, and look pretty nice.

The headers took a while to get here because they made a quick trip to a dyno, which also explains the blue tint to the headers. I am reviewing the dyno info in detail and posting in a couple of days.
In a non-optimized dyno test, the headers were within 1 hp and 1 lb ft on peaks on a 575 hp, 461 stroker when compared with a set of 1-3/4 super competitions. Again, details will be posted within a couple of days.
Many, many thanks to Dave at SD Performance for squeezing in the dyno test in during a very busy time of year.

Mike

[roadrage david]

looking good. are these the 1 3/4 inch primaries !!.

[aronhk_md]

Hey Mike.....glad to see they are ready to rock & roll. Look forward to seeing the dyno results. Honestly, most of us 2nd generation bird guys should compare them on a dyno to a set of 4 tube headers that have had a sledge hammer taken to the lowest pipes......cause thats about the equivalent of reality........lmao.

On the weld note.......the pics I showed a few posts back of Dougs and Mad Dog headers in comparison kinda gave the story. None of those headers are show quality weld jobs. My guess is if these Tri-y's were actually show quality then I could expect to pay $1200-$1500 like the chevy boys do for those kind of headers. Or, to be accurate....I'd have to pay 25% more than they do.....cause thats how it always works. lol.

Personally, I'm just glad the tri-y's are available. I had a 73 formula yrs ago and no clue what headers were on it, but I do remember the tubes were pretty bashed in underneath. My 73 TA today sits lower than that car did....you can probably get an idea from my pic on here.

[mbwicz1]

Attached is a text file showing the differences between the Hooker SC and Tri Y headers. If you want the excel spreadsheet, PM me with your email address. Both sets are 1-3/4 D port headers, and the dyno test was from 3700 to 6000 rpm. The Tri y headers have 2" secondaries and 3" collectors (all measurements are OD). Engine specs:

461, SD/KRE CNC heads (300-305 cfm), 'old faithful' HR cam (236/245/112), 10.7:1 compression, torker II (CNC matched at SD), 850 holley (76/79 jets), 32 degrees timing.

The Tri Y peak numbers were 571 hp and 579 tq (1.4 and 1.8 less than SC), and the averages were 507 hp and 551 tq (3.3 and 3.9 less than SC). At all points, the SC made more torque and HP than the tri-y on this application. If you look at the attachment, there are a couple of interesting things:

1. The dyno test was setup on the SC, and tuned on this. The headers were changed, and one pull was made. No tuning was done with the Tri-Y headers, and both tests were done on the same day.
2. The CFM (Air Tri Y) through the carb hat was consistently higher on the Tri Y tests. The Volumetric Efficiency (VE), BSFC, BSAC, and fuel (lb/hr) were also higher with the Tri-Y tests. What this means is that there was more air (between 8 and 17 CFM) being run through the engine with just a header change.
3. The A/F ratio was generally higher on the Tri-y test.

Now, please understand that I am an engineer by trade, so I often look into data too much. I also spent my own money on the tri-y headers, so I am trying to look at them in a positive light.
Because there was more air and fuel flow into the engine with only a header change, it appears that the scavenging 'theories' have some merit. The fact that more air was going through the engine, but less torque was made tells me that there may be something left in the engine. It would seem that this extra airflow was being lost.
The cam used has a larger than common exhaust duration, when compared to intake duration, 9 degrees. Though this helps extend the power range, and has been proven very effective in SD's engines, I wonder if the tri-y's would be better suited to a more traditional 4-6 degrees of additional exhaust duration. My thought is that the scavenging might be pulling too much fresh charge into the exhaust. Just a thought.
Like many tests, it seems that there are more questions than answers. I guess that I am happy to know that the tri-y's are within a couple of numbers of the SC's, and supposedly the SC's are within a couple of numbers of Dougs. In my car, I am most grateful to the additional ground clearance. My engine is a bit different than the one tested (290 cfm heads, RPM intake, q-jet), but I honestly think that I will scare myself just plenty with a 500+ tq/hp engine on the street, even if I leave 10 hp on the table.
Maybe other guys have other priorities, but I am happy with the tests. I am having the headers coated 'cast iron gray', which should look great. I will post pictures once they are done. Sorry for the long post, let me know if there are any questions.

Mike

[roadrage david]

very impresife!.

[gearbanger]

I wonder why they didnt try to compensate the extra air flow with some jetting. It doesnt make sense to just change the headers and not correct the rest of the combination for the change. Not that I dont appreciate the data, but it seems like every test that I see is always flawed to some degree and you really can't draw a conclusion from it.

I am definitely impressed with the power made be the 461!

[mbwicz1]

Dave at SD was doing me a favor by testing these. The test was not on my motor, so I could not expect him to spend too much time without getting paid. Like you said, nobody has a perfect test.
Another thing that I forgot to mention is that the headers are very evenly blue. There is not a different coloration around the joints, bends, or merges that would suggest a significant temperature change. I don't know if this means anything or not, but I know when I see chrome headers tarnish they generally start a couple of inches from the head and then the discoloration fades after 12 or 18 inches.
Plenty of things to wonder about......

Mike

[gearbanger]

My guess is that has alot to do with the thickness of these headers. Personally I would have opted for the 16 gauge tubing for a little lighter header, but I am not complaining. These headers will no doubt last forever. I beleive that the tri-ys would have made more average power and tourque than the 4 tubes if they would ahve given the motor the extra fuel that it was wanting. But, that's cool. I understand that the guy getting the motor, probably wasn't getting tri-y headers and so why mess with his engine to optimize it for them. I wish I had endless money, cause I love testing stuff like that. I'd say I probably like experimenting better than I like actually driving the car. I guess that is why it stays under construciton more than it stays running.

[Tom Hand]

http://www.engine-swaps.com/Pages/WhatsHot.html#head4

Here's what I get to pay if I want Try-Ys for my A-body 1969 340 Barracuda. Nice units from these guys as well.
Tom