[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

A guy on another site is asking for info on the Ray Hunt Pontiacs. This pic of a '72 A-body is all I can find. It may have been a Super Stocker, at the time. Can't tell, for sure. I think Ray was connected to Mid-America Speed Centers. May have owned it. Don't know.

Anybody have more info on Ray Hunt Pontiacs ?

NOTE: Not interested in Ray Hunt, just the Pontiac cars themselves, that were raced with the Hunt and/or Mid America names on 'em.

My brother Dan bought Ray Hunts '71 T-37 455HO E/SA way back in the early 1980's sometime...can't remember exactly. He sold the car to a friend and where it went after he sold it, we're not sure.

Dennis

[ponyakr]

Thanks for the info & pics.

I thought the car looked familiar.

Had no idea who owned it or who was driving. But I have the 2 pics of it below.

In the 1st pic, a close-up of the 1st name on the window appears to be maybe either Tony or Terry. 2nd name appears to begin with either "Cud" or "Gud". Or it may be "Good". Seems like the name Tony Goodman rings a bell.

In the 2nd pic, it has Jack McCormick on the side. Assume Jack owned it then. Don't know who was driving. It didn't have TOS racing on the side, in that pic. Can tell by the paint/stripes it's the same car.

So, can you fill in any of the blanks these 2 pics leave ?

What was your brothers last name ?

Do you have or know where to find pics of the car when the Hunt bros raced it ?

Sorry for all the questions. But I like to have all the facts straight before I post info about an old car. If I post bad info, there is always somebody right there to jump on it.

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Thanks for the info & pics.

I thought the car looked familiar.

Had no idea who owned it or who was driving. But I have the 2 pics of it below.

In the 1st pic, a close-up of the 1st name on the window appears to be maybe either Tony or Terry. 2nd name appears to begin with either "Cud" or "Gud". Or it may be "Good". Seems like the name Tony Goodman rings a bell.

In the 2nd pic, it has Jack McCormick on the side. Assume Jack owned it then. Don't know who was driving. It didn't have TOS racing on the side, in that pic. Can tell by the paint/stripes it's the same car.

So, can you fill in any of the blanks these 2 pics leave ?

What was your brothers last name ?

Do you have or know where to find pics of the car when the Hunt bros raced it ?

Sorry for all the questions. But I like to have all the facts straight before I post info about an old car. If I post bad info, there is always somebody right there to jump on it.

Dan Jensen...Tony Goodman is a good friend who bought it from Dan. I guess Tony sold it later to McCormick. I went with Dan when he bought and picked up the T-37 from the Hunt Bros. I'll have to talk to him tomorrow to find more of the back story on the car.

Dennis

[ponyakr]

Thanks for that info !

Did a search here for Tony Goodman. He ran a '68 RA2 Bird in Pure Stock. Also ran a '77/'78 Bird in Stock. Found a Q-list on which Tony was #7, in an I/SA '78 Bird.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=98282

While doing that search, I also ran across this post. If I understand what was said, it appears that the '72 GTO which Truman Fields ran in SS, was changed into a Stocker, for Indy '72. Says it set the G/S nat record & won the G/S class at Indy.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...2&postcount=39

I'd never heard this. Never seen any pics of the car with G/S on it. The post also mentions a 2nd gen Bird Stocker. I had read of this one, but haven't seen any pics or race results.

SO, does anybody here have any pics or info on either of these cars, in Stock Elim form ?

Can anybody confirm that the GTO did win G/S @ Indy in '72 and/or set the G/S record ?

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by DJ455HO

Mike, Jim was the second owner of my T-37. As a matter of fact, I also took a photo of Jim's '71 Judge at the same Street Machine Nationals. I went there with Scott Tiemann and Tony Goodman. I also took a photo of a '73 Brewster Green T/A with a SD-455 and four speed, which you know my brother has had since the late 80s!

Dan

Is this the same car being talked about here?

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Mark Weymouth

This is a very interesting thread for me. What I consider Pontiac's best street motor is the HO but it may not be the best race motor.

I am the one who built both motors and wrote the article for Musclecar Enthusiast. I also did the RA IV/RA III comparo, '68/9 350 HO comparo, '70/1 LS6 comparo, L88, 440+6 and many more for them. Dan Jensen and I built all the motors for these dyno articles and ultimately for them to go into Pure Stock race cars. As most of these motors were for either Dan's, mine, our brothers or close friends cars we showed zero bias. For each comparison we tried to exactly match the motors to each other per the PS rules.

As to stock SD's and HO's. My brother has a completely stock SD T/A with auto and my original motor for the HO T/A in the article is set aside and the addtional motor built. The set aside motor is unrebuilt original. In the taste test between the two when the HO had it's original 3.42 gears with the M22 it was much much faster than the SD.

As to the article, the SD we did was for Paul Aragona's car. It was actually pushed a bit harder per the rules than the HO in my T/A. With further tuning, as the times listed above were for the first time out for both cars, they have progressed. I drove both cars for those ET's. This fall w/Scott Tieman driving the HO at the Pure Stock Drags it was running consistant 12.60's @ 110.9's with one 111 pass. The SD has hit 13.20's @ 104 now. After the race we went back and looked for problem areas on the SD. We found a few (exhaust was changed and valves re-lashed) and the seat of the pants tells us we certianly found more.

Paul's SD is the fastest legal SD to ever run at the PS drags. It has more in it and we will keep searching for what is missing. I still feel the car has an elusive 12 second pass in it. It get's fantastic short times we just need to pull all the detials together.

The HO was dealing with a slippery track this year and we have pretty much found the end of its rope. It has quicker times in it on days when the track sticks better and will hold second gear power shifts but at 12.60's and high 110's on pump gas who can complain.

The real strength and weakness between the two when meeting the low compression restrictions of the factory build and PS rules is this: The HO makes a bunch more torque than the SD and the HO weights a bunch less. The SD has too much duration for its compression ratio. They make similar hp when done but the HO makes an extra 30 lb-ft of tq. Now full blown race setup's...Give me the SD heads...

The Gonzo's Factory Stock race listed above is not indicative of good times. The rules are scewed in strange ways and that particular day had mineshaft air that was 900' below sea level. For record times in the PS/FS races currently two places are used with a third in Virginia to be added. They all run under the same rules with the same tech's. These are Martin MI FAST race with the FS class and of course the Pure Stock drags. At this juncture my RA IV Judge is the fastest Pontiac to ever run. It has gone 12.305@114.81 in bad air with no correction factor. Next up is Tony Goodman's RA II at 12.38@110+ followed by a true battle between Dan Jensen's T-37, Jim Mino's RA II Bird and Bruno's '69 RA IV Goat. They are on top of each other. Although, and this is to poke at Bruno the last two times out Jim beat Bruno by mere hundreths. That has to hurt Bruno!

As to the rare RA IV T/A's not running... We just put one on the track. It is a blue/blue 4spd with 23K original miles. It was bought from the original owners wife when he passed away. On a very bad track and its first shake down runs had it going mid 12's at almost 114. It had quicker short times than the Judge and ultimately is likely a faster car. The car has original times slips from it being 100% stock such as jetting, exhasut, bias ply's... The car was bought that way. It ran consistant 105 mph ET's in the 13's. It has a box full of trophy's for the PS class back in the '70's at ATCO raceway. Good tuning, modern Pypes exhaust, and moder bias ply's has turned that into 12's.

The exhaust change when the Judge was an untuned stocker knock nearly a full second of an original exhaust system alone.

In the end though it may be impossible to beat the RA II cars. They have a huge weight advantage that is likely impossible to over come for the other combo's. We are currently working on two additional RA II's for next years season. That likely says more about what the racers believe than anything else.

I appreciate everyone giving me the time here. If you have any questions let me know I will answer them the best I can.

Mark

That quote is from page 4 of this thread. Some good information in that thread.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...=538654&page=4

Stan

[ponyakr]

Well, I just found some pics from the '72 NHRA US Nats. There are at least 2 pics of the '72 GTO that Truman raced. It was clearly running in SS, NOT Stock.

I actually didn't see a single Pontiac running Stock in any of the pics. But, I haven't gone thru all the pages of pics, yet. Will continue to look.

'72 was a strange year for Stock. It was more like Pure Stock. The weight breaks were all changed. I have pics of Truman Fields' '68 Bird, running in A/S, that year, IIRC.

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Thanks for that info !

Did a search here for Tony Goodman. He ran a '68 RA2 Bird in Pure Stock. Also ran a '77/'78 Bird in Stock. Found a Q-list on which Tony was #7, in an I/SA '78 Bird.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=98282

While doing that search, I also ran across this post. If I understand what was said, it appears that the '72 GTO which Truman Fields ran in SS, was changed into a Stocker, for Indy '72. Says it set the G/S nat record & won the G/S class at Indy.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...2&postcount=39

I'd never heard this. Never seen any pics of the car with G/S on it. The post also mentions a 2nd gen Bird Stocker. I had read of this one, but haven't seen any pics or race results.

SO, does anybody here have any pics or info on either of these cars, in Stock Elim form ?

Can anybody confirm that the GTO did win G/S @ Indy in '72 and/or set the G/S record ?

Dan bought the T-37 from the Hunt's in 1980 and sold it to Tony in late '83 or '84. This was Tony's first NHRA stock class racer. When Dan bought the car it had 4.56 gears in it, which was way too much gear, changed them to 4.10 and the car went quicker. The best times Dan ran was in the 11.60's on a 12.00 class index. I don't know what Tony ran in the car, but he did sink more money into it and got serious as a class racer.

Tony also bought the black '68 Firebird 400 from Dan as well. Dan bought it from Jim Mino without engine/trans. Dan had it about a year and then sold it to Tony.

Tony now campaigns a '72 Demon 340 in F/SA that just got a new paint job form Scott Tiemann. He just runs at the regional NHRA Division meets in the mid-west.

Dennis

[ponyakr]

"...The car set SS/K records right off the trailer back in '72. Pontiac sent a role of 455 HO GTO stickers in the glove box. They would often take the Goat stickers off and run it as a Lemans as it had a 200 lb. weight brake in SS/I. Pontiac built the car very light and in SS/K they would have to add the 200 lbs. to make weight. There is a fair amount of hidden trickery from Pontiac to do so when the car was shipped. It had been successful enough that Mother Mopar set the Ramchargers, Sox and Martin...after them. They never got there and beat the HO..."

OK, I'd still like to get to the bottom of this. So far, I haven't found any online evidence to prove that The '72 Lemans/GTO was ever run in any class besides Super Stock.

BUT, IF I'm understanding what I've quoted below, it appears that the author said that the same '72 Lemans/GTO that ran SS @ Indy '72, was converted to & ran G/S @ Indy '72. Says it got the '72 Indy G/S class win & set the G/S national record. I don't think it's possible to run both Stock AND SS, in the same car, at the same national event. If it was allowed, the car would have to pass tech for the Stock class it was running. If it was legal for Stock, then it would have been slow for SS, @ Indy. So, who would do that, even if they could ?

"...Ford was a pain in Pontiac's side at the time with the 428 CJ stick cars still being a dominate force in stock. With this in mind they switched to G/S for INDY in '72. The car promptly went out and set the G/S record and won class. The nearest 428 CJ car was running over 0.4 behind. They sold the Goat immediately after INDY. The car went on to reset the G/S records in '74 and twice in '75. It made runner up at INDY but never won INDY again. Truman got transferred by IBM and he also let the 455 HO E/SA Formula go at that time that Pontiac had provided..."

That post also says that the '72 Lemans/GTO was sold in '72, but "...went on to reset the G/S records in '74 and twice in '75..."

Well, that brings up more questions. For me, the questions this post brings up are:

(1) Did that '72 Lemans/GTO actually run BOTH Stock AND Super Stock ?

(2) Were there TWO of these '72 Lemans/GTO cars, one in Stock & 1 in SS ? (I've never seen another mentioned)

(3) Was the G/S class winner/record holder car mentioned actually the Firebird that was mentioned, of which I have never seen any pics or performance/race results ?

(4) Who owned/ran the car that set records in '74 & '75, AFTER it had been sold ?

(5) What exactly is the truth about this '72 Lemans/GTO & the '72 Firebird, both which Truman Fields supposedly ran in '72 ?

Main question: What car actually ran G/S, won the G/S class @ Indy '72, then reset the G/S nat record in '74 & '75 ?

Can anybody PLEASE shed some light on this ?

I HATE to say a member is posting false info. But I haven't been able to find a single shred of evidence that the '72 Lemans/GTO that Truman Fields had, ever ran in any Stock class.

Somebody please help me get to the truth here !!! It may not be important to anyone else. But, if a Pontiac did indeed win class @ Indy & set the nat record in 3 different years, I think that is important enuff to report on.

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Is this the same car being talked about here?

Stan

Stan, the Hunt T-37 wasn't a real 455HO car, just made for the class. The '71 T-37 in that thread is the real two-tone 455HO that Dan bought after he sold the Hunt racer. Dan bought The 455HO T-37 from Scott Tiemann, who bought it from Jim Luikens, who bought it from the original owner. This T-37 has never strayed more that 80 miles from where it was bought new.

Dennis

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

"...The car set SS/K records right off the trailer back in '72. Pontiac sent a role of 455 HO GTO stickers in the glove box. They would often take the Goat stickers off and run it as a Lemans as it had a 200 lb. weight brake in SS/I. Pontiac built the car very light and in SS/K they would have to add the 200 lbs. to make weight. There is a fair amount of hidden trickery from Pontiac to do so when the car was shipped. It had been successful enough that Mother Mopar set the Ramchargers, Sox and Martin...after them. They never got there and beat the HO..."

OK, I'd still like to get to the bottom of this. So far, I haven't found any online evidence to prove that The '72 Lemans/GTO was ever run in any class besides Super Stock.

BUT, IF I'm understanding what I've quoted below, it appears that the author said that the same '72 Lemans/GTO that ran SS @ Indy '72, was converted to & ran G/S @ Indy '72. Says it got the '72 Indy G/S class win & set the G/S national record. I don't think it's possible to run both Stock AND SS, in the same car, at the same national event. If it was allowed, the car would have to pass tech for the Stock class it was running. If it was legal for Stock, then it would have been slow for SS, @ Indy. So, who would do that, even if they could ?

"...Ford was a pain in Pontiac's side at the time with the 428 CJ stick cars still being a dominate force in stock. With this in mind they switched to G/S for INDY in '72. The car promptly went out and set the G/S record and won class. The nearest 428 CJ car was running over 0.4 behind. They sold the Goat immediately after INDY. The car went on to reset the G/S records in '74 and twice in '75. It made runner up at INDY but never won INDY again. Truman got transferred by IBM and he also let the 455 HO E/SA Formula go at that time that Pontiac had provided..."

That post also says that the '72 Lemans/GTO was sold in '72, but "...went on to reset the G/S records in '74 and twice in '75..."

Well, that brings up more questions. For me, the questions this post brings up are:

(1) Did that '72 Lemans/GTO actually run BOTH Stock AND Super Stock ?

(2) Were there TWO of these '72 Lemans/GTO cars, one in Stock & 1 in SS ? (I've never seen another mentioned)

(3) Was the G/S class winner/record holder car mentioned actually the Firebird that was mentioned, of which I have never seen any pics or performance/race results ?

(4) Who owned/ran the car that set records in '74 & '75, AFTER it had been sold ?

(5) What exactly is the truth about this '72 Lemans/GTO & the '72 Firebird, both which Truman Fields supposedly ran in '72 ?

Main question: What car actually ran G/S, won the G/S class @ Indy '72, then reset the G/S nat record in '74 & '75 ?

Can anybody PLEASE shed some light on this ?

I HATE to say a member is posting false info. But I haven't been able to find a single shred of evidence that the '72 Lemans/GTO that Truman Fields had, ever ran in any Stock class.

Somebody please help me get to the truth here !!! It may not be important to anyone else. But, if a Pontiac did indeed win class @ Indy & set the nat record in 3 different years, I think that is important enuff to report on.

Scroll about half way down the page and you will find both the '71 and '72 Indy results.

Does not show who won G/S says Winner disqualified.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by SD455DJ

Stan, the Hunt T-37 wasn't a real 455HO car, just made for the class. The '71 T-37 in that thread is the real two-tone 455HO that Dan bought after he sold the Hunt racer. Dan bought The 455HO T-37 from Scott Tiemann, who bought it from Jim Luikens, who bought it from the original owner. This T-37 has never strayed more that 80 miles from where it was bought new.

Dennis

Dennis,
Thanks. Is Dan still building 455 HO engines? If so is there any update on what they are making now verses that thread from years ago where Mark quote some dyno numbers?

Stan

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Dennis,
Thanks. Is Dan still building 455 HO engines? If so is there any update on what they are making now verses that thread from years ago where Mark quote some dyno numbers?

Stan

Yes, Dan is still building all Pontiac engines. He's going to dyno a '78 W72 400 this Tuesday (not for the Pure Stocks) that is .040 over, 8.75 compression with a Summit 2800 cam (204/214/112 @ .422"/.444"). I was built with Icon forged pistons on Eagle H-beam rods, so, can be upgraded in the future.

The most recent 455HO that Dan built and Dyno'd is the one for my GT-37. It too is .040 over, 8.6 to 1 compression, Summit 2802 (224/234/114 @ .466"/.488"), untouched stock heads and factory RA manifolds made 430 hp @ 5000 rpm and 535 lbft. torque @ 3500 rpm. So, fairly similar numbers, but this 455HO isn't a max build for the Pure Stocks either. With this cam, it still pulled 20" vacuum at 1200 rpm and 18" at idle...very minimal lope if any...sounded very stock.

Dennis

[ponyakr]

Dennis, do you have any more info on the '77/'78 T/A Stocker that Tony ran ? It ran more than a sec under, in July '05.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=98282

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...2&postcount=29

Any Idea of the cars' history ?

Know who built the motor that he ran in it ?

Know if it's still being raced ?

[SD455DJ]

Sorry, I never saw the car or knew that Tony owned it. I only saw in "once in a blue moon".

Dennis

[ponyakr]

Found some pics which appear to be from an ad for the car, in '75 or later.

Painted on the rear was "72-74-75 N.H.R.A. Nat'l. Record Holder".

I assume that in '72, Truman was running it, in SS.

In '74 & '75, I have no idea who raced it or what class the recs were set in.

Any pertinent info will be appreciated.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by SD455DJ

Yes, Dan is still building all Pontiac engines. He's going to dyno a '78 W72 400 this Tuesday (not for the Pure Stocks) that is .040 over, 8.75 compression with a Summit 2800 cam (204/214/112 @ .422"/.444"). I was built with Icon forged pistons on Eagle H-beam rods, so, can be upgraded in the future.

The most recent 455HO that Dan built and Dyno'd is the one for my GT-37. It too is .040 over, 8.6 to 1 compression, Summit 2802 (224/234/114 @ .466"/.488"), untouched stock heads and factory RA manifolds made 430 hp @ 5000 rpm and 535 lbft. torque @ 3500 rpm. So, fairly similar numbers, but this 455HO isn't a max build for the Pure Stocks either. With this cam, it still pulled 20" vacuum at 1200 rpm and 18" at idle...very minimal lope if any...sounded very stock.

Dennis

Dennis,
Again thank you very much. Very nice! You made 430 HP with the belt on driving the water pump and alternator. Plus exhaust manifolds. Which exhaust manifolds are you using?

Stan

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Dennis,
Again thank you very much. Very nice! You made 430 HP with the belt on driving the water pump and alternator. Plus exhaust manifolds. Which exhaust manifolds are you using?

Stan

Stan, They were original RA manifolds with tiny outlets (2.1" diameter average between the two), not the oversized RARE ones.

Dennis

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by SD455DJ

Stan, They were original RA manifolds with tiny outlets (2.1" diameter average between the two), not the oversized RARE ones.

Dennis

Dennis,
Thank you for sharing everything.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

1968 Pontiac Firebird - Too Hot For Stock?
How can this "stock" Ram Air II Firebird run 12s on Redlines?

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...tiac-firebird/

Stan