[Skip Fix]

I recently picked up a "remanufactured" 850 DP Speed Demon from Jegs for a core to tinker on,great price even for a newish core. I would assume being a reman that there were some initial problems that were corrected by the reman. The air bleeds weren't all drilled centered(no big deal) or the same size holes! This would drasticaly affect the carbs performance. It's getting drilled out and tapped for screw ins but a problem missed by both initially and the remanufacturer.

My current Holley 850 DP had no shavings in the bowls but had shavings under both metering block gaskets.

You just have to check everything.

[goquick]

Having bought and installed enough from all the carb man., you had better take them apart and clean them out. Only one carb in the last 4-5 years have we taken apart right out of the box and there was almost no shavings. It required the use of a small emory cloth roll to deburr a passage entry. 1 out of over 20 carbs. And far more had shavings under needle and seat areas and in the drilled passages than I'd care to realize. Makes you wonder why you are not told in the instuctions; DO NOT USE UNTIL TAKEN APART AND CLEANED. I am at the point that I would rather pay less and buy the carbs unassembled.

[BVR421]

or buy a used one and do a custom rebuild
total cost involved would be about the same

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Let's expand this thinking...if you buy a crate engine for a daily driver, do you need to take it apart to clean it?"

Well George, due to my engineering background and a process called "VERIFICATION of ASSUMPTIONS", yes, I would take it apart and check everything. I did the same thing to brand new Pontiac 455 SD rods years ago and found two out of spec, (Too small on the bore size). You get a few of those deals and you check everything.

I build my own computers for the same reason. Monitors, I buy used from a College "for a Dollar" and test them before I take them. They always have a few good ones in the batch coming in. Most are 17" or 19" too. (Office stuff).

Quote:

"I am at the point that I would rather pay less and buy the carbs unassembled."

Summit and our friend Scott E. make it pretty hard to compete with the off the shelf Holleys "building your own" from parts. It can be done though if you have the spec sheets and know what you need for a given carb. I build a lot of Double Pumper Holleys from scratch but also do repairs.

Trash can happen on any carb but Holley seems to have better employees who keep the "trash migration" to a minimum. BG is trying, I am sure of it BUT you can't watch every employee to make sure that they aren't "trashing a carb" due to a grievance against BG, Holley, Edelbrock, etc.

JMO

Tom V.

[machine shop tom]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Let's expand this thinking...if you buy a crate engine for a daily driver, do you need to take it apart to clean it?

If I knew i had to do that I wouldn't buy it......

george

Well, now that you mention it, pulling the heads for a valve job and milling and pulling the pan to clean out the garbage would be a good idea. But that's just my opinion after 30 years of being in the repair business with the last 23 being manager/machinist in a automotive engine machine shop.

tom

[speedshopmike]

tom, that's a very unrealistic view for the average consumer.
one should NOT have to disassemble a brand new product and fix the stuff the manufacturer did wrong; whether it be a vacuum cleaner or a carb.
there is no excuse for sloppy, low quality work.
and employees are supposed to watched to make sure they're doing their job properly; it's management's responsibility and obligation, and if not met, they don't deserve to be in business.
by the same token, should i have to pull my new minivan's engine and shake the casting sand out?
i sure as hell hope not! - and if so, guess what i would NOT buy again?

[Cliff R]

FWIW, testing on real engines would do much for making sure the carburetors work correctly when they leave the factory. Running them on an engine will find troubles that no amount of "flow testing" or fancy/sophisticated calibration machines will. It's a PITA from a manufacturer's standpoint to run each and every carburetor before they are shipped, so it doesn't happen.

We started complete testing of every carburetor we build about 5 years ago. We test them on a real engine, to verify that they work correctly in all areas. We also leave 5psi fuel pressure on them for 15 minutes after the running test, to verify they do not leak past the needle/seats. Come-backs went from about one carb in 20 to about 1 carburetor in 300!.....Cliff

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"tom, that's a very unrealistic view for the average consumer."

"SSMike", because there are two "Toms" posting on this topic, please either add a V to my name if you are replying to me or identify that the reply is going to MS Tom. Thanks.

As far as carbs go, if you can't change the needles and seats in a Holley carb, clean the trash out of one, or do basic Holley tune-ups at the track, you would be better off to have a carb builder build you a carb (Not a carb manufacturer) more like Cliff R, Jon Hargrove, etc and then bolt on the thing.

Tom V.

[speedshopmike]

i'm sorry; all you Toms look alike!!
haha
i was referring to tom V, re:

"Let's expand this thinking...if you buy a crate engine for a daily driver, do you need to take it apart to clean it?"

Well George, due to my engineering background and a process called "VERIFICATION of ASSUMPTIONS", yes, I would take it apart and check everything. I did the same thing to brand new Pontiac 455 SD rods years ago and found two out of spec, (Too small on the bore size). You get a few of those deals and you check everything. "

how many carbs you think i'd sell if i told folks "here's a 500 dollar carb; it might be a piece of crap, so you'd best send it to someone to go through before you bolt it on...it's only ANOTHER 200 plus bucks for that, so what's the problem?"

i don't sell nearly as many carbs as we did, say, 10 years ago, or even 5, but i can count the warranty comebacks on holleys on roughly 2 hands....and those were handled painlessly and immediately.
others could learn a lot from them, putting it in a politically correct format.
i'm not cheerleading, nor dirt throwing, just telling it like it is.

in today's competitive market, there IS NO EXCUSE for quality control that just doesn't control quality, especially on such an important component, and more especially given the average enthusiast couldn't even ID an air bleed.

[Cameano]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Let's expand this thinking...if you buy a crate engine for a daily driver, do you need to take it apart to clean it?

If I knew i had to do that I wouldn't buy it......

george

If I would have taken the time to tear down the freshly built 455 in my Firebird when my buddy had the car, I wouldn't have had to rebuild it 800 miles later, after I bought the car. Seller had a receipt for almost $4k in parts and machine work, but the cylinders were a bit tight for the forged pistons when the engine warmed up. They ended up scuffing all the bores. That put metal in the pan, which took out the bearings, etc. etc. Not to mention the heads my buddy had assembled at a local head shop. I checked them, and all of the seats wouldn't lap out, they were ground crooked somehow.

As far as Demons go, I've bought a couple of 850 vacuum secondary carbs. One needed the rear bowl inlet threads retapped, sent it to the tech department, they "lost" it for 2 1/2 weeks. Had to take my issues with them to the forums to get action out of them, the phone did no good. After it was run, found the bowls full of shavings. Cleaned them out, runs fine now. The other one runs great still. Awesome throttle response, easy tuning. It's like anything else these days. You gotta do it yourself if you want it right.

[george kujanski]

Tom V. I know what you are saying, and being in the engineering racket all my life, and having the mentality of not trusting anyone's work, I agree.

Sometimes I've come across a situation where rather than take time to do something myself, like rebuild a carb for a daily driver, It may be a quick solution to get a store-bought carb, bolt it up and go.

Now I find out I need to rebuild it first B4 I bolt it on...... spend money to correct a problem and you buy another problem...who needs that?

George

[goquick]

George, that is exactly why I made the comment about just sell me the thing in pieces so I don't have to waste time taking it apart!!! That would save time for me since step number 1 now is take it apart. What happened to the days when you didn't HAVE to take everything apart before use?

[machine shop tom]

Originally Posted by speedshopmike

tom, that's a very unrealistic view for the average consumer.
one should NOT have to disassemble a brand new product and fix the stuff the manufacturer did wrong; whether it be a vacuum cleaner or a carb.
there is no excuse for sloppy, low quality work.
and employees are supposed to watched to make sure they're doing their job properly; it's management's responsibility and obligation, and if not met, they don't deserve to be in business.
by the same token, should i have to pull my new minivan's engine and shake the casting sand out?
i sure as hell hope not! - and if so, guess what i would NOT buy again?

I quite agree that one "one should NOT have to disassemble a brand new product and fix the stuff the manufacturer did wrong", but the sad fact is that an unacceptable percentage of rebuilt AND new engines, alternators, starters, water pumps, etc., have defects that make them something you wouldn't want on or in your car.

I recently had a Mill Mitchell Hardcore 427 SBC shortblock in my shop. The timing chain was rubbing against the front of the block and the crank was 30 grams out-of-balance. The heads that the guy put on (Jegs) had the intake guides totally wasted after about 70 miles. I just checked a set of new Dart Pro 1 heads that the intake guides were bell-mouthed .006"-----NEW!

I have seen aftermarket heads with valve seats that were done with damaged cutters that left torn up seats that would never seal that were destined to be installed until I convinced the owner to have them checked out. Boy, did HIS
eyebrows go up and down when I showed him the valve seats!

As a part of an auto parts jobber, I see too many starters and alternators returned that failed within weeks (or sooner) due to poor quality of remanufacture. We quit selling remanned heads and engines because of the high failure rate--again due to crappy work.

I realize that I am in a part of the business that sees more of the failures than most other guys will see. But I also see the effect these failures have on the customer........

tom

[Rugratman]

Taken apart and cleaned, means it is used, and it can not be returned for a refund. You can send it back for repair though.
Your stuck with it, that was the point at the beginning of this thread.
New should mean perfect. Period. Remanufactured this should be expected.

[george kujanski]

Here's a related question since there are machinists here....

After a valve job, how much leakage thru the intake ports can I expect if I pressurize the cylinder to 100PSI?

I've had heads done and I get leakage thru the intake port at only 100 PSI. Under compression and power stroke, would I get more?

I understand that typically shops put a vacuum on the seated valve to check, but that's only a differential pressure of approx. 15 PSI.

George

[shaker455]

10 Pages long and still going strong!.....Get the message Demon....

People are attracted to your product including myself so don't let us down and step up to the plate and make a benchmark on quality.

Too many companys are not putting there best foot forward...WAKE UP!

George,
I never pressurized the cylinder to test for leakage,

As you said the automotive shops do perform a quick test.

I've done some very basic things like a light down the port behind the valve,spray some carb cleaner sown the port to see if it seeps around the valve, if everythings seems right I'll use some light valve compond to make sure it has a thin contact band on the seating angle.

[speedshopmike]

MST, i also see a fair number of reman gear being junk.
i have a little more mental leeway for reman products, long as they are warrantable without hassles.
i have zero tolerance for new stuff that's junk outta the box.
in the last 2 or 3 years alone i've ceased carrying several MAJOR vendors' products for this reason, and it has hurt my business somewhat and resulted in lost sales.
however, i will not reward those who build crap by continuing to sell it for them.

[Larry Navarro]

I guess we need a carb made in Japan before we see a change in the hi-po aftermarket from american companies.

[Larry Navarro]

Originally Posted by Larry Navarro

I guess we need a carb made in Japan before we see a change in the hi-po aftermarket from american companies.

uh-oh....the can is rattling.....worms anyone?

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Taken apart and cleaned, means it is used, and it can not be returned for a refund. You can send it back for repair though."

I realize that we have two schools of thought here. You have Enthusiasts and you have RACERS. An Enthusiast does not know how to take a carb apart typically and just wants the engine to perform well for the money he or she spent on the part.

A RACER better darn well know how to at least change needles and seats, gaskets, accelerator pump diaphragms, shooters, jets, and power valves.

A Racer will catch 99% of the issues from a "dirty carb" with trash in it.

A Racer will not be expected to know about air bleed sizes, emulsion hole sizes and the emulsion strategies typically. SOME DO THOUGH!

If a RACER buys a carb from BG or Holley, I would hope that he or she WOULD
take the time to inspect the carb and make sure the typical settings are in adjustment.

I realize this post is in the STREET section vs the RACE section but I think there are a lot of RACERS who post here too.

JMO.

Engine builds are a whole different discussion. This deal DID start about carbs RIGHT?

Tom V.