[78MayanW87]

I am in the middle of a 400 rebuild with plans on a 400hp engine at the end of the day. During the teardown, it is looking like this engine was rebuilt less than 50k and more likely 25k miles ago. Bored out .030 and crank turned 0.10 on both mains and rods. Everything is super clean and in good shape. However, the "62" heads appear to have never had any work done to them. I have only pulled the #8 valves but the pitting on the exhaust valve and seat is pretty bad and has a significant build up of carbon. The condition of the heads just doesn't match the condition of the rest of the engine making me believe that they were just bolted on with no work done.

Having said all that, I was hoping to get a recommendation of whether to have a valve job done, new valves, etc or to go the new aluminum head route. For those in favor of having the work done, do you know anyone in the OKC, OK general vicinity that you would trust? Thanks in advance for the help! Lee

[65madgoat]

Bolt on aluminum heads kind of a no brainer. Even if you end up going with CopyMaster... I mean... Speedmaster. By the time you rebuild the #62 heads and even have them ported or cleaned up a tad, you'd be real close to a set of new aluminum heads that also will give you more power and less weight. Do it once, do it right. Out of box D port Kauffman are great.

[indymanjoe]

butler is 6 months out to port iron.and it was 1900? (i may be off) and i had a hard time finding anyone who would touch iron heads. If you can, go aluminum. sounds like the valve stem seals may be bad or the guides most likely.

[Jay S]

If you are in Oklahoma, it shouldn’t be that difficult to find someone to economically redo your 62 heads. Might start by contacting Len Williams.

http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/Home.html

[Tim Corcoran]

You can get 400 HP using your 62 heads but they will need some port work to get there. You will need to measure how far the pistons are in the hole, measure valve relief pockets, head gasket thickness and measure your combustion chambers to know what your compression will be using an online compression calculator. You should shoot for between 9.0 to 9.5 compression with iron heads. If you have the budget some edlebrock or KRE heads out of the box will get your 400 HP with a mild flat tappet cam. If it were me I wouldn't use a hydraulic flat tappet cam I would go with a solid cam and get either the Crower cool face solid lifters or the Hy-Lift Johnson flat tappets with the EDM hole to oil the cam lobes. If you go with aluminum heads you should get your compression between 10.0 and 10.5 compression.

[Formulajones]

To rebuild heads and do them right you'll spend an easy grand and most likely closer to $1500 by the time you do guides, valves, springs, valve seats, cut for positive seals etc... and I'd about guarantee they need all that done. That's a basic solid rebuild without any port work.

So you just have to ask yourself how much you want to spend on 60 year old heads vs a set of new aluminum and if the difference is worth it to you.

Me personally if this isn't a numbers build I'd go straight for a set of Kauffman or Eddy's.

[Drag Star Le Mans]

My 62s are doing just fine but SD-Dave did them up years ago. If you want to stay stock the 62s will be fine with a budget rebuild. Otherwise watch the performance parts for sale here, some good deals pop up on aluminum heads but they go quick.

[mgarblik]

Well, this is where the mythical NEW cast iron replacement heads I have been whining about for 15 years would be the perfect solution to your problem. The same heads, allot of people see no use for and no market for. Now with that out of the way, IMO, the second best choice would be either Edelbrock or KRE D-port aluminum replacement heads. In the long run, they will cost less than a complete proper rebuild and mild porting needed to reach your HP goal. They are "sort of" out of the box bolt on parts. I would strongly recommend taking apart any new heads you buy, cleaning out the chips that are always left behind and inspect the valve job and address any rough edges or problems. The aluminum heads are much more tolerant of the lousy pump gas available. Obviously, if numbers matching is a concern, your locked into your iron heads. If in Ohio, plan on spending $1500.00-$2000.00 to get you where you want to end up. { new valves, seals, springs, retainers, keepers, valve guides, clean and surface, mild porting, proper competition valve job) Good luck whichever route you choose.

[Joe-Touring]

I live in the Seattle area, so everything is more expensive here, but shopped around for some head work and it was over $2k to get some irons redone. I figured it was worth it to just spend the $3k on aluminum.

The new aluminum heads have some big advantages:
1. Obviously, weight. 80 lbs off the front of your car.
2. Higher comp ratio. More compression=more efficiency. Can run a larger cam, while keeping the same idle/driving manners. Probably helps mileage.
3. Modern heart shaped combustion chamber. More efficient than the old iron chambers, requires less ign advance. Probably helps mileage/emissions.
4. Flows out of the box. I’ve heard stock KRE d-ports flow around 260 cfm, compared to an iron d-port at 210(?).

Really boils down to cost for me. If you can get a local shop to spruce em up for about $1000-1200, and you’re happy with the way it runs now, go for that. One caveat: if you ever want to sell the iron heads, I doubt you’d get anywhere close to $1000 for em.

[78MayanW87]

I really appreciate all the input here. I think that I am just going to go ahead and bite the bullet and go new aluminum. I had originally gone through Butler to help design a 400 hp set up. I assume I am back to square one as far as the choice of cam to go with? Here is what I was planning on running...any input on cam choice would be much appreciated! Lee

Part # BPI-K-BP8021SP
Similar to the 51-423-11 but with wider lobe separation, smoother idle, a broader power curve, and more vacuum

(HR) (Std Firing Order/ Std Journals) 276/282, 224/230, .503/.510, 114LS with 1.5 ratio rockers
Lift with 1.65 ratio rockers .553/.561

Slightly more vacuum than a 112 and produces a little smoother idle.

[Joe-Touring]

Originally Posted by 78MayanW87

I assume I am back to square one as far as the choice of cam to go with? Here is what I was planning on running...any input on cam choice would be much appreciated! Lee

Not at all. That’s exactly the cam I purchased when planning for my 400/KRE D-Port build. Butler even said that’ll be ok for my 433. I would say 1.65 rockers would be a good pairing since you’re stepping up the compression ratio and the aluminum heads will take advantage of the increased lift.

Give Butler a call. They had no problems answering my questions about running that cam with more cubes.

[chiefbigb]

I have ported allot of iron heads. Not to hard to get them in the 240 range at around .500 lift. You can do it yourself with probably 300 in tools.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by 78MayanW87

I really appreciate all the input here. I think that I am just going to go ahead and bite the bullet and go new aluminum. I had originally gone through Butler to help design a 400 hp set up. I assume I am back to square one as far as the choice of cam to go with? Here is what I was planning on running...any input on cam choice would be much appreciated! Lee

Part # BPI-K-BP8021SP
Similar to the 51-423-11 but with wider lobe separation, smoother idle, a broader power curve, and more vacuum

(HR) (Std Firing Order/ Std Journals) 276/282, 224/230, .503/.510, 114LS with 1.5 ratio rockers
Lift with 1.65 ratio rockers .553/.561

Slightly more vacuum than a 112 and produces a little smoother idle.

With the 400 and that cam you will find your going to gain about 15 to 20 HP switching to OTB aluminum head over the stock 62s. Pretty expensive HP.

[Skip Fix]

I think the big decision comes with how much $ to freshen the iron heads. As others said tanking, Magging, valve job , guides new valve, springs, porting and you are almost there there for a set of aluminum heads. Then grab one and set it on the flow bench, then grab an aluminum one that flows the same and put on the flow bench Why I have edellbrock heads on the 455 I built for the 81 vs to ported 6X's!

[78MayanW87]

I have decided that I am going to go ahead and bite the bullet and go the aluminum head route. I am leaning heavily toward KRE D-Ports but am open to suggestion. I am planning on running RARE's RAII exhaust manifolds and below is the description of the cam recommended by Butler. Anyone have any thoughts on the cam recommendation? 1.6:1 or 1.65:1 rockers? Any input is appreciated. Thanks--Lee

Part # BPI-K-BP8021SP
Similar to the 51-423-11 but with wider lobe separation, smoother idle, a broader power curve, and more vacuum

(HR) (Std Firing Order/ Std Journals) 276/282, 224/230, .503/.510, 114LS with 1.5 ratio rockers
Lift with 1.65 ratio rockers .553/.561

Slightly more vacuum than a 112 and produces a little smoother idle.

[Jay S]

Your short on info to discuss how well the cam will work. Things like compression, carb and induction, transmission, stall, gears, and what car it is going in. Bulter’s I assume had that info when they suggested that cam.

The combo is apparently pretty mild if that 114 LSA version of the 423 is the cam Bulter’s recommended. Probably the KRE D ports are likely a good fit. I think you would be happier with that cam on a 112 LSA, it really needs more exhaust duration or seat timing for the LSA to be spread out to 114. I know I would be happier anyway.

Your probably thinking 65 cc KRE d port, but I would opt for the 75 cc KRE d ports if your keeping the cam small. But since I don’t know what the compression will be, I admit it is kind of a guess. The smaller the cam, the less gains you will see adding more compression.

You will loose about 40 lbs switching to aluminum heads.

I have been noticing some more reproduction round port RA manifolds showing up on E bay. If you don’t have the RA manifolds, and can find some round ports RA’s that fit your chassis, you could save some money and make more power going with round ports. I think a 72 cc E head with bathtub chambers is $2600 to $2700. The KRE’s and most of the cnc chamber E heads are well above 3K. All the aftermarket head options need new head bolts, the iron head bolts are to short. SM round ports are about $2150 assembled? But you need shop to look at them before you use them, really need that on any of the options. It often takes $300 to get SM head ready to use, the valve job isn’t very good.. So your really not saving much. The head casting are made from good material, as good as any. But… JMHO, the valves springs, valves, and valve guides SM uses are made from inferior junk that won’t last over the long haul. Save now, pay later kind of deal. I admit though I have a bad bias when it comes to SM..I can’t stand them…lol

[78MayanW87]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Your short on info to discuss how well the cam will work. Things like compression, carb and induction, transmission, stall, gears, and what car it is going in. Bulter’s I assume had that info when they suggested that cam.

The combo is apparently pretty mild if that 114 LSA version of the 423 is the cam Bulter’s recommended. Probably the KRE D ports are likely a good fit. I think you would be happier with that cam on a 112 LSA, it really needs more exhaust duration or seat timing for the LSA to be spread out to 114. I know I would be happier anyway.

Your probably thinking 65 cc KRE d port, but I would opt for the 75 cc KRE d ports if your keeping the cam small. But since I don’t know what the compression will be, I admit it is kind of a guess. The smaller the cam, the less gains you will see adding more compression.

You will loose about 40 lbs switching to aluminum heads.

I have been noticing some more reproduction round port RA manifolds showing up on E bay. If you don’t have the RA manifolds, and can find some round ports RA’s that fit your chassis, you could save some money and make more power going with round ports. I think a 72 cc E head with bathtub chambers is $2600 to $2700. The KRE’s and most of the cnc chamber E heads are well above 3K. All the aftermarket head options need new head bolts, the iron head bolts are to short. SM round ports are about $2150 assembled? But you need shop to look at them before you use them, really need that on any of the options. It often takes $300 to get SM head ready to use, the valve job isn’t very good.. So your really not saving much. The head casting are made from good material, as good as any. But… JMHO, the valves springs, valves, and valve guides SM uses are made from inferior junk that won’t last over the long haul. Save now, pay later kind of deal. I admit though I have a bad bias when it comes to SM..I can’t stand them…lol

Thanks Jay - So here is what I am working with:

1978 Trans Am with no knowledge of the work that had been done previously. "557" casting 400ci. TH400 with unknow stall torque converter. I am planning on converting over to a TKX at some point but will initially run this engine with the TH400. Rear end now has 3.42 with an Eaton Tru-Trac that I put in it. Came with a beat up 2.55 hidden inside of a 3.23 housing.

I have the engine torn down and see that the work done appears to have been fairly recent (25k miles?) based upon the cleanliness of it and the prominent crosshatch in the cylinder bores. It has been bored out 0.030 over. You have the detail on the "62" heads and their current condition. The crank is an Armasteel 9773383 out of a 64-65 389ci. and has been ground 0.010 on both the rod and main journals. The intake manifold is a 481733 casting out of a 71 400ci. I plan on reusing this manifold and running a Holley Sniper EFI on it. Currently has headers of unknow origin that will be replaced with the aforementioned RARE RA D-ports that should arrive in a couple of days.

My intention was to build a 400hp engine really just for fun. It wont be raced. Maybe a car show or two and I want to be able to run on pump gas. The cam recommendation from Butler was based upon being asked if I wanted the idle "smooth, mild or rough"...I said "mild" hence the 114 LSA. For what it is worth, I ran the cam past Jeff Kaufman and he thought it would be a great fit for the aluminum KRE 74cc d-ports and suggested a 1.65:1 rocker arm. As far as compression goes, I am assuming I am going to be right about 9.75:1.

Hope this info helps and if I can provide anything else please let me know. Any input is appreciated. Thanks--Lee

[Jay S]

Yep, that helps a lot. What pistons does it have?

The way your car is set up I think you would like the 112 version of that cam with RA manifolds better and the car would run a little harder, especially if you plan on a manual swap later. The 114 version with that much compression the idle will be closer smooth with just a hint of lope. Almost dead smooth if you have a X pipe or H pipe on the exhaust system. Like I mentioned I think that grind needs more exhaust duration when it is widened out like that. It become kind of lethargic after 112, it widens the power band out and ends up making less power. I have 423 with the 110 LSA for a 400 with 62s, it is fairly mild to me. Pretty similar to yours in a 557 block. 1.65s are a good idea.

[78MayanW87]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Yep, that helps a lot. What pistons does it have?

The way your car is set up I think you would like the 112 version of that cam with RA manifolds better and the car would run a little harder, especially if you plan on a manual swap later. The 114 version with that much compression the idle will be closer smooth with just a hint of lope. Almost dead smooth if you have a X pipe or H pipe on the exhaust system. Like I mentioned I think that grind needs more exhaust duration when it is widened out like that. It become kind of lethargic after 112, it widens the power band out and ends up making less power. I have 423 with the 110 LSA for a 400 with 62s, it is fairly mild to me. Pretty similar to yours in a 557 block. 1.65s are a good idea.

Thanks Jay - It currently has Speed Pro forged pistons (L2262F30) but I had planned on changing those out. I don't have the exact piston info in front of me right now, but it would have been the DSS pistons that Paul Sandoval recommended in his book for a ~400 hp build. Your thoughts on that?

[Joe-Touring]

Originally Posted by 78MayanW87

Thanks Jay - It currently has Speed Pro forged pistons (L2262F30) but I had planned on changing those out. I don't have the exact piston info in front of me right now, but it would have been the DSS pistons that Paul Sandoval recommended in his book for a ~400 hp build. Your thoughts on that?

Curious why you’d like to replace the pistons? In your first post you said everything is super clean. Are you planning on an overbore? Everything I’ve heard about those pistons is that they’re fine, if heavy.