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#1
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Oiling for a 366/303 block with cam-driven oil pump?
Double-dipping tonight.
Anyone have a spare oil by-pass for a block with the cam-driven pump? Ha! Or recommendations on options? I think hard lines from the oil filter housing base into an Avaid remote regulator could work; but would appreciate real solutions. 1972-correct ones preferred. 303 tall-deck block going into a '72 Bird. 180 degree headers. Probably would be tight for the "stock" regulator; easy to fit a remote, like the Avaid. Planning a dry sump tank at the passenger toe board. I have no pictures of what Adams/Baker/Lund did, but assume they put a tank there. 1970 Trans Ams often put a battery there; in '71 trunk-mounted battery was allowed and dry sumps. Pictures of '71 Penske AMC shows oil tank where the battery was a year before. Lots of detail pictures of Penske; only glamour shots of Tin Indians... Many thanks for any thoughts you have. And nice to get back on this project. Mike |
#2
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My first thought if you want to be somewhat period correct.....ask Herb Adams. He is scheduled to talk at the T/A Nationals in Dayton, OH.
https://tanationals.org/ Eric
__________________
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" noted philosopher Mike Tyson Life begins at the end of your comfort zone. “The mind, once stretched by a new idea, never returns to its original dimensions.” |
#3
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I wish I could be there! Not in the stars this year.
I have great pictures of the Gray Ghost and using that as a reference point. From a crew member of the Adams' team in '72, I have only two interior shots--the dry sump tank is not visible. I also have a picture of the bypass. And I have the SCCA rules. I would appreciate any pictures or memories on how it was done. Or if anyone has: Bypass Correct dry sump tank (or pictures) I have a Moldex oil cooler I have the two filter set-up that Nell used to slow velocity Great show to all. |
#4
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Modine, not Moldex...
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#5
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I posted this many years ago after talking to Tom Nell when he was alive and Herb Adams
after he sold the Grey Ghost. ""Also, Can somebody tell me more about the Grey Ghost ?" The Grey Ghost was originally a 1964 Pontiac Tempest which belonged to Herb Adam's wife. Herb wanted to try his hand at SCCA/ club racing so he and a few of his friends from Pontiac Engineering modified the stock Tempest so that it would be legal for local club racing at Waterford, Michigan (which uses SCCA rules). It wasn't long before a rod let go in the engine that was in the car. Some of the people involved in the project were Herb, Tom Nell (Pontiac's engine man who designed the Ram Air V), Dudley (Skip) McCully, and a few others. They revised the rear suspension, changed the front suspension to pieces similar to what HO Racing later offered (Tall Spindle conversion), added a fuel cell, installed a basic legal at the time roll cage, added racing tires and wheels, and last but not least added a SPECIAL HIDDEN DRY SUMP SYSTEM IN THE ENGINE AND RIGHT FRONT COWL OF THE CAR! The stock pump pulled the oil out of the pan and sent it to the hidden oil tank. From the hidden oil tank the oil went into the block in a special oil adaptor and a second oil pump driven by the camshaft rear journal fed oil back out of the block to the oil filter. From the oil filter the oil flow was just like a normal engine. This system did away with oil slosh during cornering and made the pontiac engine much more durable. I was fortunate enough to work with a couple of Ford guys who were hired to restore the Grey Ghost for a Pontiac 2004 celebration. They dealt with Herb Adams and Tom Nell primarily but when they needed to assemble the engine they asked me to look over their shoulders. I was able to see the special parts, actually touch them, and see them installed in the car. The new dry sump stuff today is much better but you have to give the Pontiac guys (Herb, Tom, etc) credit for their efforts. By the way, the GREY GHOST led the race at Lime Rock for many laps in the rain over the best that Ford and Chebby had to offer (small guys vs factory teams) but eventual engine issues kept them from the winner's circle. There is a great article in Car and Driver (I believe) about this race. I believe that Pontiac Engineering and Pontiac in general was so irritated by this refute of the "GM is not in racing" ban that when the same guys campiagned the 73 Pontiac Grand Am in Nascar they were forced out of the corporation. JMO. I am very glad that Ford does not have that ban and actively encourages outside racing activities. Tom V." The plumbing schematic is described above.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#6
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Grey Ghost engine compartment circa 2015. Passenger fender shows the oil fill cap.
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#7
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Here is the dry sump rule from the '72 GCR.
The 1970 rules required the battery to be visible from the engine compartment. Some teams moved the firewall and mounted the battery in the passenger toe board. In '71, the battery could once again be mounted in the trunk. in '71 the Penske AMC team mounted their dry sump tank in the "window" in the firewall at the passenger toe board. There are pictures of this. I assume the battery went to the trunk. I have not found a picture of where the Junk Yard Firebird mounted the tank. A crew member said it was visible on the passenger floor. My reading of the rules is that the tank needs to be separated from the driver. Hot oil splashing in a wreck or failure would be a bummer... Anyway, I would love a picture of the JYF dry sump tank circa '72. My supposition is that teams did not reinvent the wheel for dry sump tanks in '71-they moved the battery to the trunk and used the battery window for |
#8
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Bringing this back to the top as the engine is moving along and oil is a hot topic with Jim Robertson.
Some specifics we need help with: 1. The "stock" pump is the scavenging pump. What did they use to make it live? I assume high volume and not high pressure. 2. If the loop (filters, cooler, tank, high-pressure cam pump) is set up like the Gray Ghost or Junkyard Firebird, what size line? I assume larger so less pressure to blow the filters or cooler. 3. Thoughts on period-correct tank and elevation of tank in relationship to the back of the cam. I assume the main concern is that the tank does not drain into a parked engine but flows freely. Is the tolerance of the rotor gear enough to hold oil up in the tank. Thanks in advance for your thoughts and experience. Mike |
#9
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Is that a P4B ?
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#10
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Mike just thinking about you and your project the other day!
__________________
Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
#11
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Two Suggestions:
Dry Sump oil Systems like Roger (in Europe) runs are state of the art ways to keep a Pontiac Engine alive and win races. He uses a Custom "Bob and Frank" scavenge oil pan that mounts the pump on the pan rail. You are doing a Restoration on the Herb Adams Wife's Tempest oil system. You will have ONE "scavenge pump" (Factory pump) but with the oil pressure bypass in that pump shimmed so it never opens. It grabs the oil from the pan and sends it to the hidden oil tank in the dash. The pressure pump in the Tempest oil system is the G-Rotor driven by the engine camshaft and a special drive set-up. It pumps the oil thru the oil filters mounted on the firewall and then to the engine "drivers side Factory" oil passage to feed the lifters/bearings, etc. Very unique cheater oil system for the tempest. Herbs Fire Am cars could be plumbed more like a normal oil system for a Pontiac. The suggestion was made by Eric to talk to Herb Adams at the Ohio car show. Do it. Tom V.
__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#12
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Two Suggestions:
Dry Sump oil Systems like Roger (in Europe) runs are state of the art ways to keep a Pontiac Engine alive and win races. He uses a Custom "Bob and Frank" scavenge oil pan that mounts the pump on the pan rail. You are doing a Restoration on the Herb Adams Wife's Tempest oil system. You will have ONE "scavenge pump" (Factory pump) but with the oil pressure bypass in that pump shimmed so it never opens. It grabs the oil from the pan and sends it to the hidden oil tank in the dash. The pressure pump in the Tempest oil system is the G-Rotor driven by the engine camshaft and a special drive set-up. It pumps the oil thru the oil filters mounted on the firewall and then to the engine "drivers side Factory" oil passage to feed the lifters/bearings, etc. Very unique cheater oil system for the tempest. Herbs Fire Am cars could be plumbed more like a normal oil system for a Pontiac. The suggestion was made by Eric to talk to Herb Adams at the Ohio car show. Do it. Tom V.
__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#13
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#14
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Back on this--break in life allows me to focus on something fun!
Tom V. - Absolutely. I will go to the show. More info - over spring break, I met with Jim to look closer at the block. There are tapped and plugged passages (cam oil passages from crank and lifter bores). There are three holes on the oil filter bass--is it one out, one in and a bypass or one out and two in? I have put together a power point of what we found, but do not know how to post that. Send me an e-mail and I'll do it like a Luddite--I'll e-mail it to you. It's got some good pictures... Mike@todayseuropeancars.com |
#15
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Mike,that 2015 pic is of a std deck block?Tom
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#16
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Are you talking about the cam driven oil pump that uses this setup casting on block?
__________________
John Wallace - johnta1 Pontiac Power RULES !!! www.wallaceracing.com Winner of Top Class at Pontiac Nationals, 2004 Cordova Winner of Quick 16 At Ames 2004 Pontiac Tripower Nats KRE's MR-1 - 1st 5 second Pontiac block ever! "Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts." "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." – Socrates |
#17
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Yes. Here is the picture of mine.
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#18
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Here is the oil filter pad. It has a third hole:
2 – Oil comes from the stock oil pump in the oil pan. In a stock block, it goes to the oil filter. 1 – Oil goes back into the block. In a stock block, it comes cleaned from the filter and feeds the oil galley in the driver’s side/left side of the block. 3 – 303 MAGIC. This port goes directly to the high- pressure pump. From the pictures I have seen, there appears to be a pressure bypass here. I am stumped on what it connects. |
#19
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Another confusing thing is that the cam bearing passaged from the crank appear tapped and plugged.
Likewise, the lifter bores are tapped and plugged. E – Crank journal oiling port. Oil comes from the passenger-side of the block and oils the crank. This appears stock. F – Cam oiling journal port. Some of the oil after the above oiling shoots up to oil the cam. The cam passages are tapped and plugged. This is not stock! G – 15 of the 16 lifter oiling ports are tapped and plugged. |
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