[77 TRASHCAN]

Can you build a Jim Hand style 400 Pontiac. 10:1 compression, zero decked, iron heads??? What cam??? I know the basic setup for a 455, what about a 400???
I'm sure it should have at least a 112 LSA,not sure of rest of specs...

The hot ticket in the old days before good aftermarket heads (seemed to be to me...) was a 400 w/ 16, 62, 48 iron heads, a big solid flat tappet cam.

I'm asking about a pump gas friendly, streetable engine, similar to Jim Hands wagon, engine, just 400 cubes, not a 455. Auto trans. I know it would need a proper converter, and such...

Hydraulic flat tappet, or hydraulic roller types.
Thanks Again
Jeff

[pastry_chef]

first FYI, just slapping together Jim Hand parts will not yield Jim Hand type results, not even close.

also a bigger engine will always be more streetable at a given level of tune.
so a 400 at Jim Hand peformance tune will not have Jim Hand idle quality etc.

for cam if you want a hyd flat:
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1776&gid=287
designed by harold brookshire

if you call lunati they can put the cam on a 112 LSA or whatever you want
to smooth the low end use rhoads lifters
install a 1.65 harland sharp or scorpion rocker on the intake side.

for a hyd roller cam, I would call Ace at PPR
Isky has some cool new hyd roller lobes he can get for you I think.

Pdude could also spec an excellent hyd roller

converter.. call Pdude and get him to hook you up a PTC

[shaker455]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

Can you build a Jim Hand style 400 Pontiac. 10:1 compression, zero decked, iron heads??? What cam??? I know the basic setup for a 455, what about a 400???
I'm sure it should have at least a 112 LSA,not sure of rest of specs...

The hot ticket in the old days before good aftermarket heads (seemed to be to me...) was a 400 w/ 16, 62, 48 iron heads, a big solid flat tappet cam.

I'm asking about a pump gas friendly, streetable engine, similar to Jim Hands wagon, engine, just 400 cubes, not a 455. Auto trans. I know it would need a proper converter, and such...

Hydraulic flat tappet, or hydraulic roller types.
Thanks Again
Jeff

Jeff,
Here's a nice cam Lenny Caverly put together for a 67' 400 with 670 heads.

I did up the Qjet and it made good power on the dyno:

[pastry_chef]

if it was me, for heads and intake.
http://www.j-performance.com/

Bryce is amazing, It would be cool to see what he would do to cast iron dports, without welding/epoxy

[screamingchief]

Crane #283951 would be probably be a pretty good HFT choice (grind H-288-2) for a build like that.

Will need a decent converter & mild rear gearing though,but you already know that.

HR cam,again Crane #289621 would probably be something like what I'd recommend.

Those Crane cams are "old school" no doubt,but that's often what's called for with the higher compression ratio combos,what many will suggest you're looking for are wider LSA's and more seat timing for a bit later IC event to deal with the cylinder pressure situation.

The 114° LSA HFT Crane cam installed @ 109° ICL closes the intake @ 73° ABDC.
The 112° LSA HR Crane cam installed @ 107° ICL closes the intake @ 69° ABDC.

The Crower #60243 fits into that same basic kinda of HFT cam as well.
That 112° LSA Crower cam installed @ 108° ICL closes the intake @ 70° ABDC.

Those kinda cams seem to give the most predictable results in those sorta combos if nothing else.

No doubt about it though,there are indeed other ways to skin that cat,but the results wont always be as predictable as it will be with cams like ^^^^ that.

FWIW

Bret P.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Thanks all,
I was thinking that the proper cam would need to have 10-12 less degrees for a high compression 400...making sure the intake closes late enough, thanks Jeff and Brett.
Jeff, what else can you tell me about that engine build/car???

I've been blessed to learn about cars from some great sources. I've only built a few engines, but never hurriedly put one together. I have an engine builder friend that showed me how to grind on heads (Chevrolets, of course), and his method involved taking out as little metal as possible (port velocity). Sounds like Jim Hand...??? I learned these things in the early 80's, but have had few chances to use the knowledge....I currently have a 1970 350 in my car. It's essentially a stocker, though. Took several months....

My thoughts of a Jim Hand style 400, are budget minded. The essential engine parts in Jim's 455, crank, block, heads, intake, carb, dist, are salvage yard obtainable.

No, a 400 wouldn't have all the "great" power characteristics of a 455, but it would run quite well, IF all the details are properly applied.

A stock 400 crank is plenty good for a 400 street engine, not put to the test like 455 cranks are, and stock 400 cranks are plentiful...no need for a steel 400 crank.

My vision of a "Jim Hand Style" engine, is a 10:1, zero deck, iron head, that can be easily driven on the street, runs on pump gas, and is effecient for what it is, only in a 400 cube version.

My serious 455 engine build budget has taken a beating here lately. I've been spending more money, than I'd like to think about, on luxury items like, gasoline, groceries, and utilities...

I like Jim Hands and Cliff's engines, out of the box thinking, that works!!!

Pastry chef,
thanks for the words of discouragement...LOL A good engine build is made up of all the proper details, everything has to be just right!!! I believe too many folks compromise (mostly form a lack of proper knowledge) their engine builds, and leave way too much pwer on the table. Most could have spent the same money, or a little more and had a much more powerful, and effecient engine. When I go for a ride in someones "hobby" car, I think it should rip your head off, when you step on the throttle!!!, my opinion...LOL
Jeff

[Johnny406]

The Summit 2802 would be another good choice, I have one in the backup lower compression 406 (96 heads) and it runs quite well

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

Thanks all,
I was thinking that the proper cam would need to have 10-12 less degrees for a high compression 400...making sure the intake closes late enough, thanks Jeff and Brett.
Jeff, what else can you tell me about that engine build/car???

I've been blessed to learn about cars from some great sources. I've only built a few engines, but never hurriedly put one together. I have an engine builder friend that showed me how to grind on heads (Chevrolets, of course), and his method involved taking out as little metal as possible (port velocity). Sounds like Jim Hand...??? I learned these things in the early 80's, but have had few chances to use the knowledge....I currently have a 1970 350 in my car. It's essentially a stocker, though. Took several months....

My thoughts of a Jim Hand style 400, are budget minded. The essential engine parts in Jim's 455, crank, block, heads, intake, carb, dist, are salvage yard obtainable.

No, a 400 wouldn't have all the "great" power characteristics of a 455, but it would run quite well, IF all the details are properly applied.

A stock 400 crank is plenty good for a 400 street engine, not put to the test like 455 cranks are, and stock 400 cranks are plentiful...no need for a steel 400 crank.

My vision of a "Jim Hand Style" engine, is a 10:1, zero deck, iron head, that can be easily driven on the street, runs on pump gas, and is effecient for what it is, only in a 400 cube version.

My serious 455 engine build budget has taken a beating here lately. I've been spending more money, than I'd like to think about, on luxury items like, gasoline, groceries, and utilities...

I like Jim Hands and Cliff's engines, out of the box thinking, that works!!!

Pastry chef,
thanks for the words of discouragement...LOL A good engine build is made up of all the proper details, everything has to be just right!!! I believe too many folks compromise (mostly form a lack of proper knowledge) their engine builds, and leave way too much pwer on the table. Most could have spent the same money, or a little more and had a much more powerful, and effecient engine. When I go for a ride in someones "hobby" car, I think it should rip your head off, when you step on the throttle!!!, my opinion...LOL
Jeff

Jeff,

In the interest of learning read this: http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html and download and use the dcr calculator. Remember to use advertised numbers not .050" numbers.

Karl

[shaker455]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

Thanks all,
Jeff, what else can you tell me about that engine build/car???

Jeff

Jeff,
67' GTO, engine is pretty much stock with Kieth Black pistons...think I have some pics:

[Cliff R]

Jeff, what are the dyno numbers from that engine, stock or ported heads, etc?

The Crower 60243 is close to the custom grind mentioned above. 2802 as mentioned is also a good cam for a 10 to 1 compression 400 engine. The Crower cam is 228/235/112, the 2802 224/234/114......Cliff

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by shaker455

Jeff,
67' GTO, engine is pretty much stock with Kieth Black pistons...think I have some pics:

Jeff,
Are those intake valve notches in the cylinders factory, or custom???

I'm curious about the head mod's, and dyno numbers, myself.

[Old Man Taylor]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

Jeff,
Are those intake valve notches in the cylinders factory, or custom???

I'm curious about the head mod's, and dyno numbers, myself.

Those notches are stock on '65 to '67 blocks. They changed to the 3 O'Clock and 9 O'Clock locations with '68 and up blocks when they changed the valve angles.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Bringing to the top, if anyone cares....

[Vroom_vroom]

I believe cliff told Me to move to a 112 cam for my 400 as my cam is a pos. I managed to put down good numbers with 10.1 400. Had bad lifters and a cam not optimized for my set up. Runs good but has hot start issues and lacks up too. Still cracked 400 at the wheels.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vroom_vroom]

Doh, looks like this is an old thread, shows up backwards on my phone!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[steve25]

If your headed in the direction with a 400 to try and match the greater torque production of a 455 then what you basically have to do is spin the 400 11% higher then where peak torque kicks in with a 455.

So now you have a only a few choices to do that .

1) more cam will likely be needed to shift the torque peak to a higher rpm.

1a) more overlap in that cam.

2) greater compression possibly.

3) more gearing .

4)A combination of all of these.

If you lets say want to match the torque of a stock bore 455 your going to have build the 400 to be into its peak torque band some 700 rpm higher.

If your building from scratch then there a lot to be gained by reducing internal friction like the NHRA stocker classes do to a amazing degree, and getting reciprocating weight down to a minimum.